Sorry if I am re-asking a common question or two - please just point me to the thread with answers if so!

A very very common question with DXpeditions is whether the DXpedition is "using FH mode".
It is not helped when some DXpeditions say they are strictly using FH mode but then it turns out they are using MSHV software..

There are some older documents around that describe FH mode operation in detail, but some people are saying that changes have been made since then.
What would be very helpful is a *carefully and accurately written* document about DXpedition mode that would allow a complete idiot to be able to figure out whether the station is using FH mode, and therefore WSJT-X, or not.

I have seen several attempts which are nice but in a few parts incorrect.

Maybe a document could come from the official WSJT-X developers group? That way we could all just point to it and stop all the silly arguments?

One recent example: CY0S say they are using WSJT-X software in FH mode and you see a photo of their screen showing this.
Then people are able to work them below their TX frequency or elsewhere below 1000 Hz, when the DX have like 3 streams around 300Hz.

To my understanding that means that in this case the DX guy was not in FH mode (maybe by accident?) Correct?

I tried working them in normal FT8 mode (not Hound mode) and was successful: they still copied me transmitting the 3rd part of the sequence up at 2850Hz.
My understanding was that if I am not in Hound mode, then the DX station won't copy me 3rd call in the sequence.

Someone told me DXpedition mode used to work that way but it has been changed since then.
Which is correct please?

Again apologies if there are loads of people asking these questions and I missed them in my search!
Thanks to the dev team and forum people for the help!

73
Mike M0GP

Maybe a document could come from the official WSJT-X developers group? That way we could all just point to it and stop all the
silly arguments?

The document already exists:
https://wsjt/sourceforge.io/FT8_DXpedition_Mode.pdf

There have been *NO CHANGES* in the basic Fox/Hound protocol since
that document was written - only minor tweaks to the user interface
*for the fox*.

Although the DXpedition mode document does not say so, it is not
necessary for a "hound" to use hound mode - a Fox will acknowledge
a report that is not on its frequency. The only reason for Hounds
to QSY to the Fox frequency to send a report is to get that report
out of the QRM from other hounds. I have successfully worked a
great many DXpeditions (using both WSJTX and other software) with
the standard "user mode" WSJXT and not QSYing to send my report.

To my understanding that means that in this case the DX guy was not
in FH mode (maybe by accident?) Correct?

If a Fox is answering callers below 1000 Hz, that DXpedition is
demonstrably not using software other than WSJTX as WSJTX will not
respond to callers (TX1 or TX2 messages) below 1000 Hz.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 3/25/2023 8:45 AM, Mike M0AGP wrote:

Sorry if I am re-asking a common question or two - please just point me to the thread with answers if so!
A very very common question with DXpeditions is whether the DXpedition is "using FH mode".
It is not helped when some DXpeditions say they are strictly using FH mode but then it turns out they are using MSHV software..
There are some older documents around that describe FH mode operation in detail, but some people are saying that changes have been made since then.
What would be very helpful is a *carefully and accurately written* document about DXpedition mode that would allow a complete idiot to be able to figure out whether the station is using FH mode, and therefore WSJT-X, or not.
I have seen several attempts which are nice but in a few parts incorrect.
Maybe a document could come from the official WSJT-X developers group? That way we could all just point to it and stop all the silly arguments?
One recent example: CY0S say they are using WSJT-X software in FH mode and you see a photo of their screen showing this.
Then people are able to work them below their TX frequency or elsewhere below 1000 Hz, when the DX have like 3 streams around 300Hz.
To my understanding that means that in this case the DX guy was not in FH mode (maybe by accident?) Correct?
I tried working them in normal FT8 mode (not Hound mode) and was successful: they still copied me transmitting the 3rd part of the sequence up at 2850Hz.
My understanding was that if I am not in Hound mode, then the DX station won't copy me 3rd call in the sequence.
Someone told me DXpedition mode used to work that way but it has been changed since then.
Which is correct please?
Again apologies if there are loads of people asking these questions and I missed them in my search!
Thanks to the dev team and forum people for the help!
73
Mike M0GP

Mike, I agree. I've seen CY0S and others that tout they are using WSJTx for F/H and typically all looks and works as expected. However, I've also seen other supposed real F/H stations work callers that are below 1000hz. Also, some that are not using Hound and are thus not moved below 1000hz by the Fox, still get an RR73.

At least the dead giveaway is when you see a "compound" response on the typical watering holes, that station is not running true F/H. I flag those as MSHV and will work them as normal FT8 when they move to other frequencies with no problem. I try NOT to encourage their compound behaviors on the normal FTx frequencies by working them there. Sometimes I'm caught off guard because I didn't see any previous compounds and then my response comes back as a two-part compound.

--
73's
George - WB5JJJ
Hams over IP #100105

George,

The link provided does not work for me. I get an error - This site can't
be reached.

I've looked in the files section on the SourceForge site and did not find
it. I don't see it in the other sections either. Where should I be
looking?

Robie AJ4F

Joe Subich, W4TV
Sent: 25. maaliskuuta 2023 15:39
If a Fox is answering callers below 1000 Hz, that DXpedition is demonstrably not
using software other than WSJTX as WSJTX will not respond to callers (TX1 or
TX2 messages) below 1000 Hz.

Hi Joe,
I checked using audio that really DXpedition Fox mode does *not* decode (or actually does not present to list) callers below 1000 Hz at the reception receiver. 999 Hz is too low no QSO is possible, hi!

On the other hand the DXpedition station may also use normal FT8 mode and answer callers below 1000 Hz. When using the normal mode there is only a single signal and no combined messages directed to two stations. If I were a DX station I would use audio frequencies above 1000 Hz, when using normal FT8, to make it clear. Well, receiving stations should know the base frequency for this indication to work.

73, Reino OH3mA

PS. Unfortunately it is easier to find out that a DX station is not using WSJT-X Fox mode than know the station is using Fox, hi! A longer observation of traffic will tell it at the end.
Reino

The link provided does not work for me. I get an error - This site can't be
reached.Hi Robie.

This link works for me, when I copy it to my browser's address line.
https://wsjt.sourceforge.io/FT8_DXpedition_Mode.pdf

73, Reino OH3mA

The link provided does not work for me. I get an error - This site can't be
reached.

On 3/25/2023 11:57 AM, Reino Talarmo wrote:

Joe Subich, W4TV
Sent: 25. maaliskuuta 2023 15:39
If a Fox is answering callers below 1000 Hz, that DXpedition is demonstrably not using software other than WSJTX as WSJTX will not
respond to callers (TX1 or TX2 messages) below 1000 Hz.

I edited my post poorly ... it should have been:

If a Fox is answering callers below 1000 Hz, that DXpedition
is demonstrably not using WSJTX as the WSJTX Fox mode will not
answer callers (TX1 or TX2 messages) below 1000 Hz.

alternatively I could have said (and originally wrote):

If a Fox is answering callers below 1000 Hz, that DXpedition is
using software other than WSJTX as WSJTX will not answer callers
(TX1 or TX2 messages) below 1000 Hz.

PS. Unfortunately it is easier to find out that a DX station is not using WSJT-X Fox mode than know the station is using Fox, hi! A longer observation of traffic will tell it at the end.

This is very true. The software writers who have stolen and perverted
the WSJTX code base should be, at the very least, shunned and more
probably be denounced as thieves and scoundrels globally. As pointed
out by one of the WSJTX development team on more than one occasion,
these hostile forks have caused significant confusion and damage to
the development of WSJTX.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 3/25/2023 11:57 AM, Reino Talarmo wrote:

Joe Subich, W4TV
Sent: 25. maaliskuuta 2023 15:39
If a Fox is answering callers below 1000 Hz, that DXpedition is demonstrably not
using software other than WSJTX as WSJTX will not respond to callers (TX1 or
TX2 messages) below 1000 Hz.

Hi Joe,
I checked using audio that really DXpedition Fox mode does *not* decode (or actually does not present to list) callers below 1000 Hz at the reception receiver. 999 Hz is too low no QSO is possible, hi!
On the other hand the DXpedition station may also use normal FT8 mode and answer callers below 1000 Hz. When using the normal mode there is only a single signal and no combined messages directed to two stations. If I were a DX station I would use audio frequencies above 1000 Hz, when using normal FT8, to make it clear. Well, receiving stations should know the base frequency for this indication to work.
73, Reino OH3mA
PS. Unfortunately it is easier to find out that a DX station is not using WSJT-X Fox mode than know the station is using Fox, hi! A longer observation of traffic will tell it at the end.
Reino

On Sun, Mar 26, 2023 at 06:40 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

If a Fox is answering callers below 1000 Hz, that DXpedition
is demonstrably not using WSJTX as the WSJTX Fox mode will not
answer callers (TX1 or TX2 messages) below 1000 Hz.

Or you got the fox's frequency from some dx cluster report that reported the signal frequency of one of its transmissions instead of the VFO frequency and now your idea of 1kHz is 300-900 Hz higher than the fox's idea of 1kHz.

Hi,

Yes, and after relooking at this document, it is clear it really does need
to be updated! It is, afterall, 5 years old, and if for no other reason,
the graphics are totally wrong today!!!

There is a lot more in the "Advanced" section of setting, and the main
screen is very different too, including the F&H related stuff.

73

On Sun, Mar 26, 2023 at 6:39 AM Reino Talarmo <reino.talarmo@...>
wrote:

The link provided does not work for me. I get an error - This site

can't be

reached.Hi Robie.

This link works for me, when I copy it to my browser's address line.
https://wsjt.sourceforge.io/FT8_DXpedition_Mode.pdf

73, Reino OH3mA

The link provided does not work for me. I get an error - This site

can't be

reached.

--
73 - John - N7GHZ

Reino,

I found the document via another path. The link did not work for me
yesterday, but does today!

Robie AJ4F

On Sun, Mar 26, 2023 at 8:39 AM Reino Talarmo <reino.talarmo@...>
wrote:

The link provided does not work for me. I get an error - This site

can't be

reached.Hi Robie.

This link works for me, when I copy it to my browser's address line.
https://wsjt.sourceforge.io/FT8_DXpedition_Mode.pdf

73, Reino OH3mA

The link provided does not work for me. I get an error - This site

can't be

reached.

Your rig should be set to an exact KHz (e.g., 14,092.000) and
the Fox should be between 300 and 900 Hz. That is, of course,
unless the Fox is using garbage software and not setting his
VFO to an exact KHz.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

Thanks to Joe and others
This is very helpful info!
I may recommend this thread to the DX Club.

73
Mike M0AGP