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Locked #Yaesu FT-710 FT8 recommended power output max 50w #Yaesu

Nick Smeltzer
 

I was reading an interesting thread in the wsjtx group about duty cycle and power output and finals temperature.

Well, to contribute a little (and to risk starting it off again): I have just bought the FT-710 and when I was struggling to get wsjtx working properly, I was sent the attached document from Yaesu support which states:

"It is recommended not to run above 50 watts in FT8, as FT8 is a continuous signal and running at high power levels can overheat the final amplifier in the transmitter"

Discuss :)

Is that specific to this radio? In which case I'm not happy that it isn't mentioned in any sales literature. I'd like the ability to run at full power even if I don't. Or would this be common to all/most Yaesu modern 100w radios like the FTDX10, or the 991a etc etc?

I have asked Yaesu if it is specific to this radio or applies to all, but not yet had an answer. I suspect I know the answer after reading the other thread. But still...

Nick

(hopefully the attachment comes through ok)
Dave Garber <ve3wej@...>
 

even the rtty, years ago, was always suggested as a duty cycle of 50%. but
interpretation changes. 50% , so 2 minutes on 2 minutes should be off..


its a matter of keeping the finals cool enough to last. SSB only operates
at about 70% ( except peaks) so it protects itself

Dave Garber
VE3WEJ / VE3IE

On Sat, Oct 15, 2022 at 9:37 AM Nik <nikthegeek@...> wrote:

I was reading an interesting thread in the wsjtx group about duty cycle
and power output and finals temperature.

Well, to contribute a little (and to risk starting it off again): I have
just bought the FT-710 and when I was struggling to get wsjtx working
properly, I was sent the attached document from Yaesu support which states:

"It is recommended not to run above 50 watts in FT8, as FT8 is a
continuous signal and running at high power levels can overheat the
final amplifier in the transmitter"

Discuss :)

Is that specific to this radio? In which case I'm not happy that it
isn't mentioned in any sales literature. I'd like the ability to run at
full power even if I don't. Or would this be common to all/most Yaesu
modern 100w radios like the FTDX10, or the 991a etc etc?

I have asked Yaesu if it is specific to this radio or applies to all,
but not yet had an answer. I suspect I know the answer after reading the
other thread. But still...

Nick

(hopefully the attachment comes through ok)
William Smith <w_smith@...>
 

Well, yes, that email is specific to this radio, but it is also generally applicable to any radio that cannot do full power at one hundred percent duty cycle. My IC-7100 has never had a problem at full power, but it’s a modern radio and was designed with digital modes in mind.

That said, there’s no point in trying to eak out every last watt, 50% is only three DB down, so the vast majority of FT8 contacts will still go through just fine. You can probably improve your results more with feedline, antenna, and operating practices, then you can by turning up the wick.

73, Willie N1JBJ

On Oct 15, 2022, at 9:37 AM, Nik <nikthegeek@...> wrote:

Is that specific to this radio?
Frank Mellott
 

Good morning

I have a Yaesu FTDX1200.

I run FT8 at 40 watts. On the couple occasions when I have pushed it
higher I felt like the radio was not happy. Cannot recall exactly what
it did, but I turned the power back down as soon as the QSO was over.

On SSB 100 watts is fine.

I have not used my FT991A on FT8 over 40 watts so not sure about it.

I expect Kenwood will tell you the same thing about the 590SG and Icom
about the 7300.

I would not give up on the radio because of this. If I was to buy
another, it most likely would be another Yaesu.

Hope this helps

73

Frank
KB3PQT

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William Smith <w_smith@...>
 

My IC – 7100 will turn up the fan when it starts to get warm, but it’s never gotten hot enough to be a problem it’s just gotten a little noisy as the fan runs. Of course different radios will mean different things when they turn their fans all the way up, all the way from “This is how I keep cool“ to “I’m about to melt down”.

Crank up the power until you blow out the finals, and then back off by 50% :-)

Poor SWR will also cause finals heating even if the output power isn’t necessarily very high. There are a lot of moving parts, and there’s no one-size-fits-all answer.

73, Willie N1JBJ

On Oct 15, 2022, at 11:07 AM, Frank Mellott <frankmellott@...> wrote:

On the couple occasions when I have pushed it
higher I felt like the radio was not happy.
Pietro Molina
 

The load for finals in FT8 or FT4 or any other digital mode is at least
double then in SSB.
So I imagine your rig became too hot.
However, immediately turning off the rig is not a good idea if the fan also
stops working... it is better to leave it on rx for a while, until it has
cooled down a bit before turn it off.

Pietro I2OIM

Il giorno sab 15 ott 2022 alle ore 17:07 Frank Mellott <
frankmellott@...> ha scritto:

Good morning

I have a Yaesu FTDX1200.

I run FT8 at 40 watts. On the couple occasions when I have pushed it
higher I felt like the radio was not happy. Cannot recall exactly what
it did, but I turned the power back down as soon as the QSO was over.

On SSB 100 watts is fine.

I have not used my FT991A on FT8 over 40 watts so not sure about it.

I expect Kenwood will tell you the same thing about the 590SG and Icom
about the 7300.

I would not give up on the radio because of this. If I was to buy
another, it most likely would be another Yaesu.

Hope this helps

73

Frank
KB3PQT

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Al WB9UVJ
 

You know this has bothered me for a long time. FT-8 transmits for just under 15 (13) seconds at a time. Then it listens for 15 (17) seconds. That is less than 50% duty cycle in my book. And a QSO is generally over in three transmission cycles, right? You are transmitting two carriers, one at a time. I don't see how this mode is that much different than CW at 13 WPM for a rag chew or FM (continuous wave for minutes) which radios seem to handle at full power just fine. I can understand if you use the TUNE function for long periods but I doubt any experienced ham would do that. If you were to have mis-adjusted your radio and were trying to exceed transmit power, really pushing heavily on ALC, or had moderate or high SWR than I could see an issue. My suspicion on the Yaesu letter might have something to do with lag on temperature sensing and heat sink in that particular radio. Or there is a software update in the works that will correct an issue operators are having in the field.
Pietro Molina
 

I am pretty sure that when you use the ssb the rig is a little overdriven
compared to the cw or fm.
There is no risk for the final. Real power is hard to measure with voice.
Try with a wattmeter sending wsjt tone, if the power is the same as
continuos cw to check.

Pietro I2OIM

Il sab 15 ott 2022, 19:25 Al WB9UVJ <markaren1@...> ha scritto:

You know this has bothered me for a long time. FT-8 transmits for just
under 15 (13) seconds at a time. Then it listens for 15 (17) seconds.
That is less than 50% duty cycle in my book. And a QSO is generally over
in three transmission cycles, right? You are transmitting two carriers,
one at a time. I don't see how this mode is that much different than CW at
13 WPM for a rag chew or FM (continuous wave for minutes) which radios seem
to handle at full power just fine. I can understand if you use the TUNE
function for long periods but I doubt any experienced ham would do that.
If you were to have mis-adjusted your radio and were trying to exceed
transmit power, really pushing heavily on ALC, or had moderate or high SWR
than I could see an issue. My suspicion on the Yaesu letter might have
something to do with lag on temperature sensing and heat sink in that
particular radio. Or there is a software update in the works that will
correct an issue operators are having in the field.
Buddy Morgan
 

The statements that I am about to make are a big generalization.I operate my radios at 100% power. All my radios run cool on SSB. If I operate a CW contest, they all start to get slightly warm. If I operate FT8, for an extended period of time, the radios all get warm - not hot. If I operate Q65, with one minute cycles they get hot. That is when you have to start being careful. I own a FTDX101MP. For everyone's information, Yaesu told me to keep the final amp temperature below 80 degrees C. It has got close, a few times, running one minute Q65 skeds. IMHO: if your radio is getting hot, back off the power. Otherwise, let it rip.

Buddy WB4OMG

-----Original Message-----
From: Al WB9UVJ <markaren1@...>
To: main@WSJTX.groups.io
Sent: Sat, Oct 15, 2022 12:25 pm
Subject: Re: [WSJTX] #Yaesu FT-710 FT8 recommended power output max 50w

You know this has bothered me for a long time.  FT-8 transmits for just under 15 (13) seconds at a time.  Then it listens for 15 (17) seconds.  That is less than 50% duty cycle in my book.  And a QSO is generally over in three transmission cycles, right?  You are transmitting two carriers, one at a time.  I don't see how this mode is that much different than CW at 13 WPM for a rag chew or FM (continuous wave for minutes) which radios seem to handle at full power just fine.  I can understand if you use the TUNE function for long periods but I doubt any experienced ham would do that.  If you were to have mis-adjusted your radio and were trying to exceed transmit power, really pushing heavily on ALC, or had moderate or high SWR than I could see an issue.  My suspicion on the Yaesu letter might have something to do with lag on temperature sensing and heat sink in that particular radio.  Or there is a software update in the works that will correct an issue operators are having in the field.
Michael Black
 

Since the FT-710 has an FT8 preset in the menu.If that doesn't adjust the power down to 50W than Yaesu has made a huge mistake with that rig.There is an HF MAX POWER setting.  Can somebody check to see if that gets changed to 50W when the FT8 preset is selected?
There is no mention of a 50W limit for FT8 in the 710 manual so I'd like to know where that "note" about limiting FT8 to 50W came from.
And I don't see any way to measure temperature in the CAT manuals for Yaesu rigs nor mention of temperature in the 710 manual other than operating range.
Mike W9MDB
Jim Brown
 

On 10/15/2022 9:47 AM, Pietro Molina wrote:
I am pretty sure that when you use the ssb the rig is a little overdriven
compared to the cw or fm.
You are mistaken. If you are doing that, you are creating splatter on both sides of your signal, which QRMs other operators.

73, Jim K9YC
Michael Black
 

Attachment didn't come through....can you post that in the files section?

On Saturday, October 15, 2022 at 08:37:19 AM CDT, Nik <nikthegeek@...> wrote:

I was reading an interesting thread in the wsjtx group about duty cycle
and power output and finals temperature.

Well, to contribute a little (and to risk starting it off again): I have
just bought the FT-710 and when I was struggling to get wsjtx working
properly, I was sent the attached document from Yaesu support which states:

"It is recommended not to run above 50 watts in FT8, as FT8 is a
continuous signal and running at high power levels can overheat the
final amplifier in the transmitter"

Discuss :)

Is that specific to this radio? In which case I'm not happy that it
isn't mentioned in any sales literature. I'd like the ability to run at
full power even if I don't. Or would this be common to all/most Yaesu
modern 100w radios like the FTDX10, or the 991a etc etc?

I have asked Yaesu if it is specific to this radio or applies to all,
but not yet had an answer. I suspect I know the answer after reading the
other thread. But still...

Nick

(hopefully the attachment comes through ok)
Nick Smeltzer
 

It doesn't. I have already contacted Yaesu and fed this back. It doesn't have a power setting in the FT8 preset, but nor does it have a power setting by mode, apart from AM which is set at 25w.

My FT-891 has a max power setting for Data, FM, SSB, all separate. But not the 710. It is HF, 6m and 4m and AM. They are the only options. So if set to HF SSB and 100w, you  have to manually turn the power down when changing over to data.

Worse still, the memory settings don't remember settings for power either. If they did, I'd be able to programme all the FT8 channels in and then not worry about it.

It's not a very well thought through UI. It looks similar to the FTDX10, so I wonder if that has power settings for data?

I also wonder if WSJT-X could take care of this by having a CAT control option to set power to a pre-determined level (set in the software) each time you change band?

Nick

On 15/10/2022 18:04, Michael Black via groups.io wrote:
Since the FT-710 has an FT8 preset in the menu.If that doesn't adjust the power down to 50W than Yaesu has made a huge mistake with that rig.There is an HF MAX POWER setting.  Can somebody check to see if that gets changed to 50W when the FT8 preset is selected?
There is no mention of a 50W limit for FT8 in the 710 manual so I'd like to know where that "note" about limiting FT8 to 50W came from.
And I don't see any way to measure temperature in the CAT manuals for Yaesu rigs nor mention of temperature in the 710 manual other than operating range.
Mike W9MDB
Nick Smeltzer
 

Correction. My 891 has a power setting for non-SSB called "HF Pwr", a separate setting for HF SSB called "HF SSB Pwr" and AM for HF and the same for 6m. So not a specific data power setting, although setting "HF Pwr" to 20w gave 20w out on data whilst still allowing 100w out on SSB or CW.

The 710 just has "HF Max Power" with no separate setting for SSB to override it and no separate setting for data either.

Nick

On 15/10/2022 19:37, Nick Smeltzer via groups.io wrote:
It doesn't. I have already contacted Yaesu and fed this back. It doesn't have a power setting in the FT8 preset, but nor does it have a power setting by mode, apart from AM which is set at 25w.

My FT-891 has a max power setting for Data, FM, SSB, all separate. But not the 710. It is HF, 6m and 4m and AM. They are the only options. So if set to HF SSB and 100w, you  have to manually turn the power down when changing over to data.

Worse still, the memory settings don't remember settings for power either. If they did, I'd be able to programme all the FT8 channels in and then not worry about it.

It's not a very well thought through UI. It looks similar to the FTDX10, so I wonder if that has power settings for data?

I also wonder if WSJT-X could take care of this by having a CAT control option to set power to a pre-determined level (set in the software) each time you change band?

Nick

On 15/10/2022 18:04, Michael Black via groups.io wrote:
Since the FT-710 has an FT8 preset in the menu.If that doesn't adjust the power down to 50W than Yaesu has made a huge mistake with that rig.There is an HF MAX POWER setting.  Can somebody check to see if that gets changed to 50W when the FT8 preset is selected?
There is no mention of a 50W limit for FT8 in the 710 manual so I'd like to know where that "note" about limiting FT8 to 50W came from.
And I don't see any way to measure temperature in the CAT manuals for Yaesu rigs nor mention of temperature in the 710 manual other than operating range.
Mike W9MDB
John G0GCD
 

I don't know if this might be worth checking.
It's dated technology but my FT100D saves power settings by mode, even though it only has one power setting menu. (Actually, HF, VHF and UHF)

For example, on HF, if I set 5W max whilst in FM mode, that setting will stick. Change to SSB and I can set 50W. Back to FM and it's back to 5W. This feature caused me to tear my hair out until I got it.

Just a thought that Yaesu designers may have reverted to that approach.

Also not sure if DATA has its own slot...

GL
John G0GCD
Bruce N7XGR
 

Nick, This is where Yaesu makes mistakes, in looking at the
710 manual, what is missing on the meter display is the TEMP
reading of the finals. The IC705, 7100, 7300, 7610, 9700
and other newer Icoms have the TEMP reading available.
Like I have indicated with my 891 is that I have the
power out at 100 watts with no problem.
The Icoms have a 100% duty cycle.
In the 891 main menu 05-20 you can select NORMAL or CONTEST
for the FAN CONTROL which means to me that the fan will
be running all of the time at a low speed, increasing speed (CONTEST)
when transmitting. But in the 710 I can not find any such
setting, this is where Yaesu is not consistent from one
radio to another. I leave 05-20 set for NORMAL.
If I was needing to set the power out to like 50 watts for DATA mode
then I would have this setup, WSJT-X>Commander program>FT710.
I would set up macros commands to lower the power via macros buttons.
Each one is programmed very easily, so no need to touch the radio.
I would have another set of buttons to increase the power back to 100 watts.
The 710 has lots of "bells and whistles" but it is "tone deaf" in several
areas.

Bruce N7XGR

On Sat, Oct 15, 2022 at 2:37 PM Nick Smeltzer <nikthegeek@...> wrote:

It doesn't. I have already contacted Yaesu and fed this back. It doesn't
have a power setting in the FT8 preset, but nor does it have a power
setting by mode, apart from AM which is set at 25w.

My FT-891 has a max power setting for Data, FM, SSB, all separate. But
not the 710. It is HF, 6m and 4m and AM. They are the only options. So
if set to HF SSB and 100w, you have to manually turn the power down
when changing over to data.

Worse still, the memory settings don't remember settings for power
either. If they did, I'd be able to programme all the FT8 channels in
and then not worry about it.

It's not a very well thought through UI. It looks similar to the FTDX10,
so I wonder if that has power settings for data?

I also wonder if WSJT-X could take care of this by having a CAT control
option to set power to a pre-determined level (set in the software) each
time you change band?

Nick

On 15/10/2022 18:04, Michael Black via groups.io wrote:
Since the FT-710 has an FT8 preset in the menu.If that doesn't adjust
the power down to 50W than Yaesu has made a huge mistake with that
rig.There is an HF MAX POWER setting. Can somebody check to see if that
gets changed to 50W when the FT8 preset is selected?
There is no mention of a 50W limit for FT8 in the 710 manual so I'd like
to know where that "note" about limiting FT8 to 50W came from.
And I don't see any way to measure temperature in the CAT manuals for
Yaesu rigs nor mention of temperature in the 710 manual other than
operating range.
Mike W9MDB
Nick Smeltzer
 

Nope. Tried. If I set the power to 70w on LSB and change to FM, its still 70w. If I change it on FM to 5w and move to data or USB, its still 5w. Doesn't change by either band or mode.

Nick

On 15/10/2022 20:16, John G0GCD wrote:
I don't know if this might be worth checking.
It's dated technology but my FT100D saves power settings by mode, even though it only has one power setting menu. (Actually, HF, VHF and UHF)

For example, on HF, if I set 5W max whilst in FM mode, that setting will stick. Change to SSB and I can set 50W. Back to FM and it's back to 5W. This feature caused me to tear my hair out until I got it.

Just a thought that Yaesu designers may have reverted to that approach.

Also not sure if DATA has its own slot...

GL
John G0GCD
Reino Talarmo
 

I also wonder if WSJT-X could take care of this by having a CAT control option to set power to a pre-determined level (set in the software) each time you change band?
Hi Nick
Perhaps the existing selection "Remember power settings by band" on the Audio tab is what you want. I have not studied how it exactly works, should be in the User Guide.
73, Reino OH3mA
Nick Smeltzer
 

But is that actual power?

I've been setting my radio to, say, 20w and then using the power slider so that the ALC indicates some deflection. If, however, I set my radio to 100w and turn the power slider down, I get no ALC deflection. Will I still be transmitting a decent quality signal? I'll have to have a listen on a monitoring radio and see what it sounds like. But if it works, then yes, good idea, thanks.

Nick

On 15/10/2022 21:23, Reino Talarmo wrote:
I also wonder if WSJT-X could take care of this by having a CAT control option to set power to a pre-determined level (set in the software) each time you change band?
Hi Nick
Perhaps the existing selection "Remember power settings by band" on the Audio tab is what you want. I have not studied how it exactly works, should be in the User Guide.
73, Reino OH3mA
Michael Black
 

Without looking at your signal you don't really know.
Here's what I would recommend.
#1 Set WSJT-X to full power#2 Set Rig to 100W#3 Set your FT8 Preset USB Mod Gain to give you 50W
Then you will never exceed 50W of output.
Mike W9MDB

On Saturday, October 15, 2022 at 04:33:33 PM CDT, Nick Smeltzer <nikthegeek@...> wrote:

But is that actual power?

I've been setting my radio to, say, 20w and then using the power slider
so that the ALC indicates some deflection. If, however, I set my radio
to 100w and turn the power slider down, I get no ALC deflection. Will I
still be transmitting a decent quality signal? I'll have to have a
listen on a monitoring radio and see what it sounds like. But if it
works, then yes, good idea, thanks.

Nick

On 15/10/2022 21:23, Reino Talarmo wrote:
I also wonder if WSJT-X could take care of this by having a CAT control option to set power to a pre-determined level (set in the software) each time you change band?
Hi Nick
Perhaps the existing selection "Remember power settings by band" on the Audio tab is what you want. I have not studied how it exactly works, should be in the User Guide.
73, Reino OH3mA
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