Five weeks or so ago I noticed that the input sound slider indicator displayed 52 Db on a very quite band. I first thought bad Win 11 update, then a bad USB sound card is still the use, then a bad Win 11 driver handling and or something just not right with WSJT-x RC4. To clarify, even though I have this 52 Db issue I still can still copy FT8 to -22 to -24 and -20 on FT4, but I never know what the current input value is without an external meter program. Running an I7 Dell Inspiron desktop, Win11 with the newest 22H2 OS version with sound in and out from a Microkeyer connected to a FT5000mp.

My Dell machine has the traditional head phone setup with line out but I have not been using it with the digital modes, instead using a older USB sound with line in and a speaker output that use to worked great and still does but without the correct indication on WSJT-x or on JTDX which I don’t use.

To test where the issue maybe I bought a new USB sound cards. Nothing changed with the new. Got help from Michael Black a well known member of this group, but after two hours Mike he was also a wits end for a solution.

Since none (USB) cards made a difference, I bought a PCIe SoundBlaster card and it worked OK using line in. Had an issue with a motor boating output and sent it back to Amazon. Did some follow-up regarding the USB C-Media chips and decided to try a different and third and more costly USB soundcard. Again the new card had the same issues. I had a Headphone splitter jack cable and decided to try the mic’ input on the gaming jack on the PC front and that $5 cable worked, I could adjust the input in WSJT-x to 30DB and the slide display bounce up and down with signals. Then you may ask what’s the issue. Why using USB doesn’t work, that’s the issue. Is it Win11 or WSJT-x? Or something else like Dell drivers for USB connected devices..

So I took the next step and loaded WSJT-x starting with version 2.3 up and through 2.6.0 RC4 on a HP AND quad processor, OS is WIN10 that I used up until 4/2022 for digital and used both a internal MB sound card and a USB card, the same issue showed when using the USB card from 3 different manufactured sound cards. The PC internal worked OK since that is what I had been using until Dell arrived with no internal PCIe card, I think that rules out the OS versions as to the trouble but maybe not the USB system which is both 2.0 and 3.0 on the Dell..

Summary,
1. Win11 and or Win10 show the same issue with external cards
2. USB sound cards seem not to be the issue since 3 different manuf' exhibit the same issue.
3. PCIe internal card or Motherboard mount work as expected.
4. WSJT-x from version 2.3 to the latest RC version exhibits the sound indication issue.
5. The latest WIN 11 major update #2202 version 22h2 doesn’t help with the issue.
5. Amazon hates me since I keep buying and returning sound cards both internal and USB style.

I’m afraid to order any of the current USB adaptors built for hams since the USB I’ve tried do not work. I feel it is either a USB driver issue with Win 11 or a trigger issue with WSJT-x with the type of sound input. I have checked the WJTX INI file and it response correctly to the selection of input selected. I’ve verified all the sound readings that actually is set using Audacity and a digital level meter by Paul Marshal a ham operator.
That’s how I adjust the inputs now, if you’ve got any suggestions I’ll spend the time to try them and report back. A special thanks to Mike Black for the time he spent with me on the initial reporting of the issue weeks ago.

73 de Ron W4LDE

Hi Ron,
There are at least following entities that may affect to the received signal strength in wsjt-x:
Your FT5000mp
Microkeyer
Sound card, especially when it contain analog gain setting
Windows Recording settings including Mixer.
If I understood correctly a change of the sound card does not affect and can be ruled out.
Also Windows settings seems to be ruled out.
What about the Microkeyer? Have done any settings on it e.g. die to use it for other modes?
I would not rule out your rig as well. Any possible change there?
73, Reino OH3mA

I just checked my system and the WSJT-X level indicator showed 46 dB with the antenna disconnected. I am using an IC-706MKIIG with Signalink interface. The reading varies between 0 dB and 57 dB if I vary the Rx level adjustment on the Signalink interface.

The FT8 Operating Guide states the following:

"The bar graph audio level meter in WSJT-X or JTDX should normally read about 30 dB on a ‘dead’ band, increasing to about 50 dB on an active band with about a dozen stations QRV simultaneously, higher still on an HF band buzzing with life and lots of strong FT8 signals."

The readings with my antenna disconnected are apparently from noise generated by the IC-706MKIIG. The reading drops to 1 dB if I turn the radio off.

73, Kent
AA6P

Hi Kent,

Have you tried turning off the receiver's AGC, and turning down the RF-gain to the point where the receiver's S-meter stays at zero, just before it will start to rise? (This must be done on a clear frequency with no signals received).

That gives the best reception for me with my ICOM transceiver.

73 and good luck from Tom (LA4LN)

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Tom (LA4LN)

Reino,

Thanks for suggestions, I ruled out the micro-keyer since I completely bypassed it in the trouble shooting mode.

As to sound cards a MB furnish card works, a PCI-e card works but not any of three different USB cards.

I honestly feel the issue is between Win11 and WSJT-x

Ive got a few more things to try.  TU for the help

73 de Ron W4LDE



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As to sound cards a MB furnish card works, a PCI-e card works but not any of three different USB cards.

Hi Ron,

My knowledge about sound cards and how Windows commands those is a bit rusty, but could it be that those sound cards that provide too much signal level actually have also analog gain. How exactly that is controlled in Windows may be the issue.
WSJT-X accepts what Windows provides to it at reception side as the signal is in digital format and there is no advantage to attenuate that digital signal in the program.
Let us know, when you get it resolved, hi!

73, Reino OH3mA

On 10/2/2022 1:19 PM, Reino Talarmo wrote:

My knowledge about sound cards and how Windows commands those is a bit rusty, but could it be that those sound cards that provide too much signal level actually have also analog gain. How exactly that is controlled in Windows may be the issue.

Coming from a working life in pro audio, and a long-time member of the AES Standards Committee Working Group on audio interfacing, it's been my observation digital engineers and circuit designers are usually pretty ignorant of the analog world. So it wouldn't surprise me if analog levels are not handled well in systems that include A/D and D/A conversion. I have also seen that ignorance in the Elecraft rigs that I own and love -- analog I/O for the K3 is an example.

Based on my hands-on inspection in every booth at Dayton and Visalia conventions, and in the manuals for ham gear written by their manufacturers, that ignorance extends to grounding and bonding.

There is also the widespread false belief that audio input/output circuitry equipped and designed for 600 ohm source and termination. That practice was abandoned in the worlds of broadcast studios, recording studios, home studios, and pro sound reinforcement at least 50 years ago! The only professional application where some engineers appear to have not gotten the message are the designers of broadcast transmitters.

Since about 1970, both pro and consumer audio has adopted the standard of low impedance source (< 100 ohms for pro, < 500 ohms for consumer), and high impedance loading (that is, input stages) -- ~10 KOhms for pro, ~50 KOhms for consumer.

73, Jim K9YC

Hi Ron

I had the EXACT same problem with my new Dell Inspiron I5. It is a problem that can be fixed . The problem is two files: Wave Audio Services and Wave Audio Universal Services files installed by Dell. They are located in the Services list and are accessed with Services Manager. To go to the files: click on the Windows icon on the bottom toolbar, use "Search" at the top of the start window, type "services", select SERVICES App, find the two files, then disable them. W9MDB was kind enough to spend five hours locating these files creating the input codec issue.. The two files need to be disabled. For what ever reason, Dell is adding intermediate processing between the input codec and the apps using the input codec.

My email address is on QRZ. Send me an email if you want to talk more. Michael W9MDB is the guru who figured this out. If it were not for him, my codec would still be screwed up.

Bill N4iQ

Bill,

TU for taking the time to provide some insight, however, Mike did remember what help fix your machine and we look and look at every service on the PC and there not there.  Guess Dell figured it out or someone advised them to remove them.  I did another search and found no such service.

It's not the end of the ham radio digital event , hi, since I'm now using the USB card as my default windows sound out and using the line out as my communications device plus using the mic input, both on the MB inside that Dell box.  Everything is working OK.

Its darn annoying that windows 11 changes things and the manufacturers have to spend time and in many cases software re-engineering.

During the next rainy day I'll spend some more time but in my case I don't think the issue may not be with windows.  If indeed I find a solution it will be posted.

Bill, again thanks for the suggestions, it is appreciated.

73 de Ron W4LDE


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Like other operators here, I had to buy a new Dell laptop with Windows 11 loaded. I have a QRPGuys transceiver that I have been sing for months on a Win 10 machine. With Win 11, the audio output feeding the transceiver, will slowly reduce the audio output as if there was an AGC acting on the audio. Before the standard transmit period is finished, the audio level is so low that the transmitter is no longer keyed. I have seen that Wave Audio Services and Wave Audio Universal Services are loaded but I thought those were part of the Waves audio module. I have not tried to remove those services but will give it a try and see what happens. I will report back if that is effective. I also have an FT-818 with Signallink that I have not been able to try out. I will let you know what I find.
Thanks if anyone else has a fix for this.
Al

I have since tried disabling both of the Wave Services with no effect on the audio output level reduction. I have tried a few inexpensive USB sound cards including two that have worked in the past before Win 11. All of the cards perform the same way. After clicking on TUNE and looking at the level in the Mixer app, I can see the audio output start at the selected level and then slowly it will lower to the point where the VOX on the transmitter no longer holds the transmitter in transmit. The level slider does not change, only the audio output. I can see it both on the Audio Mixer app and the sound app. The meters in both apps slowly reduce the audio output to about a third of what the audio is set too. All audio enhancements are turned off and there is no spatial enhancement enabled.

I wonder if it could be your Dell?

John
VE7KKQ

I just noticed that WSJT-X shows an audio level of 20 dB with my radio and Signalink USB interface both turned off. However, the level drops to 0 dB if I lower the Windows level control on the USB Audio Codec. This looks like it could be noise generated in some part of the system.

If I configure WSJT-X to receive audio from my microphone, the indicated audio level is much higher. I can only reduce the level to 0 dB if I lower both the Microphone level control and the Microphone Boost level control.

I also viewed the audio level meter in Audacity. The meter reads from -60 dB to 0 dB at full scale. The changes in dB track what I see in WSJT-X. Digital audio WAV files apparently define 0 dBFS as the highest achievable signal level. WSJT-X and Audacity both respond to changes in the Windows level control.

In case this is of interest, the Windows driver for my Signalink USB Codec is wdma_usb.inf along with six individual files. The wdma_usb.inf file appears to be a generic driver supporting a number of different codecs. The Signalink USB uses a PCM2906C stereo audio codec from Texas Instruments.

73, Kent
AA6P

The SignaLink is quite susceptible to local noise.
One solution many do is aluminum foil on the front and back panels that connects with the case to provide better shielding.
I've also seen computers where internal cards cause a lot of noise.
On one of my units here when I unplug the radio from the Signalink and leave the SignaLink power on I get 7dB.
You can capture your noise using Audacity, amplify it, and do a spectrum analysis to see if anything pops out.
Mike W9MDB

Well I have done some more experimenting thinking it might have something to do with the sound card. I am running Win 11 on a Dell Inspiron 16 5625 with the latest version of wsjt running. I can watch the audio meter on either the setup mixer or on the old Windows version of the audio control panel (mmsys.cpl). In either case on wsjt, the meter shows normal level output at the beginning of the transmission but then it starts to fall to about a third of the start level. This occurs when I select "tune" as well. I estimate the level falls by 12 dB. Then thinking the audio card was at fault, I routed Firefox audio to the same USB card and plugged in headphones, the audio did not fall. I then plugged in my QRPGuys transceiver and the audio did not fall there either with an audio program. This only occurs running wsjt so I am starting to believe the problem exists within wsjt and the Windows USB driver. It gives every indication that the audio output is under an AGC level control. I would think that there is an *ini file that might be able to turn off this feature but I have not found one yet. My next step is to reconnect my FT-818 and Signalink interface to see if that is also affected since it is USB sound card as well. If anyone has experience with USB sound cards, that might explain this fault, I would like to hear about it.

Well I have done some more experimenting thinking it might have something to do with the sound card. I am running Win 11 on a Dell Inspiron 16 5625 with the latest version of wsjt running. I can watch the audio meter on either the setup mixer or on the old Windows version of the audio control panel (mmsys.cpl). In either case on wsjt, the meter shows normal level output at the beginning of the transmission but then it starts to fall to about a third of the start level. This occurs when I select "tune" as well. I estimate the level falls by 12 dB. Then thinking the audio card was at fault, I routed Firefox audio to the same USB card and plugged in headphones, the audio did not fall. I then plugged in my QRPGuys transceiver and the audio did not fall there either with an audio program. This only occurs running wsjt so I am starting to believe the problem exists within wsjt and the Windows USB driver. It gives every indication that the audio output is under an AGC level control. I would think that there is an *ini file that might be able to turn off this feature but I have not found one yet. My next step is to reconnect my FT-818 and Signalink interface to see if that is also affected since it is USB sound card as well. If anyone has experience with USB sound cards, that might explain this fault, I would like to hear about it.

Hi Al,
Could that AGC be in Windows sound system including control of the sound card? I don't see any reason or capability for WSJT-X to do any AGC kind action on audio. Actually it sends audio at 0 dB level i.e. maximum undistorted waveform, when the Pwr slider is at top.
It seems to linked to Win 11 and perhaps only Dell computers. I am still using Win 10 and cannot repeat your experience.
73, Reino OH3mA

All,
I had some time and reconfigured using my FT-818 and Signalink interface. The audio behaves the same way. After the transmission starts the audio output to the radio starts to fall and within the transmit period will actually fall to about a third of the selected audio on the metering within windows. I tried turning off Wave services and all that did was remove my headphone output. I am really leaning towards RealTek being at fault. I will pursue that next. I know that there is a reported fault in the latest two drivers that do affect audio. I also found a reference to other applications that are open interfering with audio, but I have not found that to be true. My audio output level never rises, it always falls.

Al, It seems that Dell does not have their act together.
I would complain to Dell about this problem because it appears
they have loaded some crazy bloatware and thus affecting
the audio function.
If it was me then I would get a Solid State drive of either 250 or
500 gigs and get regular Win 10 and install that in the Dell.
This way you will start off with a regular Windoze version
without all of the headache of Dell's nefarious bloatware.

Bruce N7XGR

I'm using Windows 11 with an HP Omen gaming laptop to run WSJT-x alongside FLdigi and Log4OM2 and am having no issues, so it definitely sounds like a driver specific error or even possibly RF in the shack. Before you go the nuclear option of reverting back to Windows 10 or buying any SSD, do check out the drivers. Search your audio driver version in Google and find the official driver page and see if there are any problems listed and (if available), what the fix is.

I think the more likely problem, though, is RF in your shack. I would test this out by ordering some ferrite bead rings that will fit onto the SignaLink cable where it plugs into your computer or USB hub (if using one). Also could be a faulty USB cable. I used to have these types of problems when I was using a Xeigu G90 with an in-line amplifier and it did affect audio levels when I had RF in the shack. Ever since I moved to Yaesu FTDX10 and bettered my grounding systems, I have not had this problem. Again, rule all that out before going nuclear. You might also try adding some ferrite rings to your coax just before its connection to the radio.

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Mark Bell
KO4OEH

Here are a few additional thoughts on the 52 dB noise level mentioned in the original post.

1. USB Ports directly on the Motherboard may be a better choice than USB Ports wired to the front of the computer case.

2. Ground loops should be avoided where possible. Signalink USB provides isolation between the computer and radio using two audio transformers and a reed relay for transmit control.

3. Duplicate the exact hardware setup that worked earlier in the year. If the 52 dB noise level is seen, that would suggest that the problem is in software.

There was a recent Windows 10 Update that caused serious audio problems for some users. It is certainly possible that Windows 11 could have audio problems as well.

https://www.windowscentral.com/software-apps/windows-11/how-to-fix-audio-after-applying-system-update-kb5015878-on-windows-10

There are a lot of sound settings in Windows 10 that I had not noticed previously.

Sound Control Panel - Playback Tab - Select Device - Properties

Enhancements Tab - Enable or Disable Enhancements
Advanced Tab - Exclusive Mode
Spatial Sound Tab - On and Off

Sound Control Panel - Recording Tab - Select Device - Properties

Listen Tab - Listen to this Device
Listen Tab - Power Management Settings
Advanced Tab - Exclusive Mode

Sound Control Panel - Sounds Tab - Sound Themes

Sound Control Panel - Communications Tab - Windows can automatically adjust volume when the computer is placing or receiving telephone calls

73, Kent
AA6P