locked WSJT-X & FTdx-5000 #txaudio #Yaesu


Chuck Moore <wd4hxg@...>
 

After spending several weeks fighting with 3rd party Digital/Analog Interface boxes and
the FTdx-5000 I finally bit the bullet and pulled the scope out of mothballs to look at the
signals on the so called packet port on the FTdx5000. Some notes follow.

  • On the five pin DIN connector labeled Packet, Pin # 4, the audio out pin has about
    350 mV output unloaded.  That is with Menu Item 072, "Data Output Level"
    set to 100. As you change the Level between 0 and 100 you can see the amplitude
    change on the scope display.
  • Rear Packet Port  Audio input is blocked unless you change the stock setting on
    Menu Item 103. This item has three choices, "Front, Data & PC".  "PC" is not
    currently enabled according to Yaesu. "Front", indicates the audio input is the
    microphone connector on the front of the rig. "Data" indicates that the rear Packet
    Port Pin #1 is the audio input.  So if you use the Packet Port you must change
    Menu Item 103 to "Data".
  • Yaesu's manual indicates that the Packet Port pins for input and output are 600
    Ohm and 10 K Ohm. I suspect it is a misprint.  Insofar as I can determine the
    the input and output is 600 Ohm.
  • One thing that caused a lot of chaos for me was the lack of explanation of audio
    porting from the radio to sound devices for computers. Yaesu's SCU-17 has two
    Internal CODEC's and automagically grab audio out via the RS-232 port. Similarly
    it also injects the computer generated tones for digital modes via the RS-232
    port. Of course the CODEC's in the SCU-17 have created the digital data from
    the computer generated tones. Somehow Yaesu is routing digital  audio data
    and the CAT commands on the same USB Cable.
  • When using the Packet Port and the rig is set to either LSB or USB, the audio
    bandwidth closely matches the IF Bandwidth displayed on lower front right panel
    of the radio. Do not select the Packet Mode on the front panel, unless you are
    actually operating a packet mode. The rig narrows the IF bandwidth to about
    1000 Khz and centers the packet passband at about 1000 Hertz. For most
    common digital modes such as FT-8, PSK-31 etc you want the full IF bandwidth,
    not the narrowed packet bandwidth.
  • Beware of the terminology used in Yaesu's operating manual for the 5000 and
    SCU-17.  Of particular note it appears that Yaesu uses "Data" as a substitute
    for "Audio".  During a call with another op I asked the question if Audio and
    Data were muxed on the same pins of the Packet Connector. The answer
    seemed ambiguous and I was left even more confused.

  • Beware of Sound Devices when selecting them for WSJT in "Settings".
    Windows in its infinite wisdom seems to have a propensity for reusing names
    of devices. After attaching the SCU-17 I found four "USB Codec" entries
    instead of the two I started with.

  • Right now WSJT-X is decoding signals and I can hear the transmit audio
    via the radio's monitor provisioning.

Now I have to find out why I have a
high SWR on the low end of the HF bands.

Regards

Chuck WD4HXG


Bill Somerville
 

On 02/08/2021 18:18, Chuck Moore via groups.io wrote:

After spending several weeks fighting with 3rd party Digital/Analog Interface boxes and
the FTdx-5000 I finally bit the bullet and pulled the scope out of mothballs to look at the
signals on the so called packet port on the FTdx5000. Some notes follow.

  • On the five pin DIN connector labeled Packet, Pin # 4, the audio out pin has about
    350 mV output unloaded.  That is with Menu Item 072, "Data Output Level"
    set to 100. As you change the Level between 0 and 100 you can see the amplitude
    change on the scope display.
  • Rear Packet Port  Audio input is blocked unless you change the stock setting on
    Menu Item 103. This item has three choices, "Front, Data & PC".  "PC" is not
    currently enabled according to Yaesu. "Front", indicates the audio input is the
    microphone connector on the front of the rig. "Data" indicates that the rear Packet
    Port Pin #1 is the audio input.  So if you use the Packet Port you must change
    Menu Item 103 to "Data".
  • Yaesu's manual indicates that the Packet Port pins for input and output are 600
    Ohm and 10 K Ohm. I suspect it is a misprint.  Insofar as I can determine the
    the input and output is 600 Ohm.
  • One thing that caused a lot of chaos for me was the lack of explanation of audio
    porting from the radio to sound devices for computers. Yaesu's SCU-17 has two
    Internal CODEC's and automagically grab audio out via the RS-232 port. Similarly
    it also injects the computer generated tones for digital modes via the RS-232
    port. Of course the CODEC's in the SCU-17 have created the digital data from
    the computer generated tones. Somehow Yaesu is routing digital  audio data
    and the CAT commands on the same USB Cable.
  • When using the Packet Port and the rig is set to either LSB or USB, the audio
    bandwidth closely matches the IF Bandwidth displayed on lower front right panel
    of the radio. Do not select the Packet Mode on the front panel, unless you are
    actually operating a packet mode. The rig narrows the IF bandwidth to about
    1000 Khz and centers the packet passband at about 1000 Hertz. For most
    common digital modes such as FT-8, PSK-31 etc you want the full IF bandwidth,
    not the narrowed packet bandwidth.
  • Beware of the terminology used in Yaesu's operating manual for the 5000 and
    SCU-17.  Of particular note it appears that Yaesu uses "Data" as a substitute
    for "Audio".  During a call with another op I asked the question if Audio and
    Data were muxed on the same pins of the Packet Connector. The answer
    seemed ambiguous and I was left even more confused.

  • Beware of Sound Devices when selecting them for WSJT in "Settings".
    Windows in its infinite wisdom seems to have a propensity for reusing names
    of devices. After attaching the SCU-17 I found four "USB Codec" entries
    instead of the two I started with.

  • Right now WSJT-X is decoding signals and I can hear the transmit audio
    via the radio's monitor provisioning.

Now I have to find out why I have a
high SWR on the low end of the HF bands.

Regards

Chuck WD4HXG

Hi Chuck,

the SCU-17 is an interface designed for Yaesu rigs with no built in sound card. It also eliminates the need for an RS-232 serial port by including a USB to serial adapter. You connect it to your rig via RS-232 to the CAT socket and via a dedicated cable for AFSK audio and PTT via the PACKET socket. There is no "interleaving" on either of those connections. The PC connection to the SCU-17 is a single USB cable, over that runs a virtual serial port protocol and a digital audio (PCM) protocol. The SCU-17 appears on your PC as a COM port, which is connected to the RS-232 output of the SCU-17, and an input and output pair of audio devices which will be given the generic name "USB Audio CODEC". The serial port will not appear unless the Yaesu VCP driver is installed on the PC. There is nothing particularly unusual about more than one protocol running in parallel over a USB connection, for example consider how a multi-port USB hub works, there are no restrictions other than power consumption as to what is connected to each hub port, yet the upstream connection is just another USB cable.

Both the DATA IN and DATA OUT pins on the packet socket of the FTdx5000 are 10 kOhm impedance. Both input and out audio on the SCU-17 are 600 Ohm impedance.

73
Bill
G4WJS.


Chuck Moore <wd4hxg@...>
 

Bill

Thank you for the info on the SCU-17. I borrowed a unit from a
local and discovered the need to install the drivers before
connecting the SCU-17. Despite doing that, upon connection,
Windows immediately popped up and searched for updated
drivers, and installed them. When I go into the Device manager
there are now two new Com Ports listed (4 & 5) and when
checking to see what the audio device descriptors are in the
Sound Settings I find the apparently generic label USB Codec.
In any event I tried the rig this afternoon and successfully contacted
a couple of stations on 40 meters.  Checking PSKREPORTER
revealed dozens of stations in the Eastern US receiving my
signal with varying degrees of signal to noise. It took a while
to sort things out.

Thank you for the clarification on the audio output level on
the packet port.

Regards

Chuck WD4HXG

On August 2, 2021 at 3:52 PM, "Bill Somerville" <g4wjs@...> wrote:

On 02/08/2021 18:18, Chuck Moore via groups.io wrote:

After spending several weeks fighting with 3rd party Digital/Analog Interface boxes and
the FTdx-5000 I finally bit the bullet and pulled the scope out of mothballs to look at the
signals on the so called packet port on the FTdx5000. Some notes follow.

  • On the five pin DIN connector labeled Packet, Pin # 4, the audio out pin has about
    350 mV output unloaded.  That is with Menu Item 072, "Data Output Level"
    set to 100. As you change the Level between 0 and 100 you can see the amplitude
    change on the scope display.
  • Rear Packet Port  Audio input is blocked unless you change the stock setting on
    Menu Item 103. This item has three choices, "Front, Data & PC".  "PC" is not
    currently enabled according to Yaesu. "Front", indicates the audio input is the
    microphone connector on the front of the rig. "Data" indicates that the rear Packet
    Port Pin #1 is the audio input.  So if you use the Packet Port you must change
    Menu Item 103 to "Data".
  • Yaesu's manual indicates that the Packet Port pins for input and output are 600
    Ohm and 10 K Ohm. I suspect it is a misprint.  Insofar as I can determine the
    the input and output is 600 Ohm.
  • One thing that caused a lot of chaos for me was the lack of explanation of audio
    porting from the radio to sound devices for computers. Yaesu's SCU-17 has two
    Internal CODEC's and automagically grab audio out via the RS-232 port. Similarly
    it also injects the computer generated tones for digital modes via the RS-232
    port. Of course the CODEC's in the SCU-17 have created the digital data from
    the computer generated tones. Somehow Yaesu is routing digital  audio data
    and the CAT commands on the same USB Cable.
  • When using the Packet Port and the rig is set to either LSB or USB, the audio
    bandwidth closely matches the IF Bandwidth displayed on lower front right panel
    of the radio. Do not select the Packet Mode on the front panel, unless you are
    actually operating a packet mode. The rig narrows the IF bandwidth to about
    1000 Khz and centers the packet passband at about 1000 Hertz. For most
    common digital modes such as FT-8, PSK-31 etc you want the full IF bandwidth,
    not the narrowed packet bandwidth.
  • Beware of the terminology used in Yaesu's operating manual for the 5000 and
    SCU-17.  Of particular note it appears that Yaesu uses "Data" as a substitute
    for "Audio".  During a call with another op I asked the question if Audio and
    Data were muxed on the same pins of the Packet Connector. The answer
    seemed ambiguous and I was left even more confused.

  • Beware of Sound Devices when selecting them for WSJT in "Settings".
    Windows in its infinite wisdom seems to have a propensity for reusing names
    of devices. After attaching the SCU-17 I found four "USB Codec" entries
    instead of the two I started with.

  • Right now WSJT-X is decoding signals and I can hear the transmit audio
    via the radio's monitor provisioning.

Now I have to find out why I have a
high SWR on the low end of the HF bands.

Regards

Chuck WD4HXG

Hi Chuck,

the SCU-17 is an interface designed for Yaesu rigs with no built in sound card. It also eliminates the need for an RS-232 serial port by including a USB to serial adapter. You connect it to your rig via RS-232 to the CAT socket and via a dedicated cable for AFSK audio and PTT via the PACKET socket. There is no "interleaving" on either of those connections. The PC connection to the SCU-17 is a single USB cable, over that runs a virtual serial port protocol and a digital audio (PCM) protocol. The SCU-17 appears on your PC as a COM port, which is connected to the RS-232 output of the SCU-17, and an input and output pair of audio devices which will be given the generic name "USB Audio CODEC". The serial port will not appear unless the Yaesu VCP driver is installed on the PC. There is nothing particularly unusual about more than one protocol running in parallel over a USB connection, for example consider how a multi-port USB hub works, there are no restrictions other than power consumption as to what is connected to each hub port, yet the upstream connection is just another USB cable.

Both the DATA IN and DATA OUT pins on the packet socket of the FTdx5000 are 10 kOhm impedance. Both input and out audio on the SCU-17 are 600 Ohm impedance.

73
Bill
G4WJS.





Joe WB9SBD
 

In a FTDX-5000MP,

How much power can we safely run in the high duty digital modes?

Like RTTY and the stuff in the WSJT-X magic box.

My old Kenwood TS-430S 100 watt rig, 100 watts OVERHEAT

Like 50 watts and the fan would never ever come on

75 watts was like a 50% duty cycle with the fan, so figured that was a safe level.

My IC-7300, 100 Watts Period regardless of mode, the temp gauge may rise 1 bar at the most,
I have no idea what it takes to get that radio Hot!

But now this 200 Watt FTDX-5000MP

What power level ends up like the 7300, where the fan rarely comes on if at all.

and what power level is like the 430S where the fan runs like half of the time?

Joe WB9SBD


Chuck Moore <wd4hxg@...>
 

I take my cue from two things for power output. One is the derating used by
the radio manufacturer for the radio when running AM vs SSB.  My rig is
rated for 200 Watts PEP SSB by Yaesu. For AM they specify 50 Watts. That
to me indicates that the safe upper end for high duty cycle SSB is going to
be about 50 Watts for my radio.  Also on the rig here there is an option to run
the finals in a very linear mode (Class A) as opposed to acceptable AB mode.
Running in the ultra linear mode as it is called results in the SSB output being
capped at 70 Watts PEP.  Since the extra 20 watts will be less than about 1.5
dB increase in power it hardly seems worth it to risk the health of the finals.
I will venture a guess that the repair bill for replacing the finals will be around
$450 - $600. Heap on that the shipping costs will be about $120.00 each way.
I will opt for the 4:1 derating and set the max threshold at 50 watts "for the rig"
when using digital modes.

Other than the occasional "Oops" of forgetting to reduce the power out, I cap
the RF out at 25 watts. I will generally use less power if PSKReporter and/or
HamSpots is returning reports of my Signal Strength being better than -5 dB.

Regards

Chuck WD4HXG


On August 3, 2021 at 10:13 PM, "Joe WB9SBD" <nss@...> wrote:

In a FTDX-5000MP,

How much power can we safely run in the high duty digital modes?

Like RTTY and the stuff in the WSJT-X magic box.

My old Kenwood TS-430S 100 watt rig, 100 watts OVERHEAT

Like 50 watts and the fan would never ever come on

75 watts was like a 50% duty cycle with the fan, so figured that was a
safe level.

My IC-7300, 100 Watts Period regardless of mode, the temp gauge may rise
1 bar at the most,
I have no idea what it takes to get that radio Hot!

But now this 200 Watt FTDX-5000MP

What power level ends up like the 7300, where the fan rarely comes on if
at all.

and what power level is like the 430S where the fan runs like half of
the time?

Joe WB9SBD





Michael Black
 

Not true.  AM is always 2-4 times less than SSB peak power as they are referring to the carrier power.


CW or FM is the better comparison and most all rig specifications show those at full power.

A few rigs actually mention duty cycle.  And duty cycle becomes extremely important in amplifiers as most manufacturers overrate their amplifiers for SSB and high duty cycle FT8 will kill those amplifiers.  Elecraft is one of the few whose amplifiers can do 100% duty cycle as rated which is one of the reasons they cost so much.  I've got an HLA305 rated at 250W and I can 250W on most bands with FT8 without overheating the thing.  I can 200W all day and can do key down at 200W for at least 5 minutes.

Mike W9MDB


On Tuesday, August 3, 2021, 10:08:51 PM CDT, Chuck Moore via groups.io <wd4hxg@...> wrote:


I take my cue from two things for power output. One is the derating used by
the radio manufacturer for the radio when running AM vs SSB.  My rig is
rated for 200 Watts PEP SSB by Yaesu. For AM they specify 50 Watts. That
to me indicates that the safe upper end for high duty cycle SSB is going to
be about 50 Watts for my radio.  Also on the rig here there is an option to run
the finals in a very linear mode (Class A) as opposed to acceptable AB mode.
Running in the ultra linear mode as it is called results in the SSB output being
capped at 70 Watts PEP.  Since the extra 20 watts will be less than about 1.5
dB increase in power it hardly seems worth it to risk the health of the finals.
I will venture a guess that the repair bill for replacing the finals will be around
$450 - $600. Heap on that the shipping costs will be about $120.00 each way.
I will opt for the 4:1 derating and set the max threshold at 50 watts "for the rig"
when using digital modes.

Other than the occasional "Oops" of forgetting to reduce the power out, I cap
the RF out at 25 watts. I will generally use less power if PSKReporter and/or
HamSpots is returning reports of my Signal Strength being better than -5 dB.

Regards

Chuck WD4HXG


On August 3, 2021 at 10:13 PM, "Joe WB9SBD" <nss@...> wrote:

In a FTDX-5000MP,

How much power can we safely run in the high duty digital modes?

Like RTTY and the stuff in the WSJT-X magic box.

My old Kenwood TS-430S 100 watt rig, 100 watts OVERHEAT

Like 50 watts and the fan would never ever come on

75 watts was like a 50% duty cycle with the fan, so figured that was a
safe level.

My IC-7300, 100 Watts Period regardless of mode, the temp gauge may rise
1 bar at the most,
I have no idea what it takes to get that radio Hot!

But now this 200 Watt FTDX-5000MP

What power level ends up like the 7300, where the fan rarely comes on if
at all.

and what power level is like the 430S where the fan runs like half of
the time?

Joe WB9SBD








Rob Sherwood
 
Edited

Chuck,

 

The reason the FTdx-5000 is rated at 200 watts PEP SSB and 50 watts on AM is at 50 watts AM the PEP power level is also 200 watts PEP, assuming the rig actually upward modulates 100%.  It has nothing to do with derating the radio from a duty cycle standpoint.  The rig may well have a duty cycle rating, but it has nothing to do with SSB vs. AM.  In the AM days of the past, a carrier input of 1 KW was 4 KW PEP, and with class C 70% efficient was 3 KW PEP output.

 

The 5000 MP MK V in class A has an outstandingly clean signal.  Here is a screen capture from W6XX (now SK). Note these values are in the more conservative dBc method. Add 6 dB to both values for the PEP method used in advertisements and ARRL testing.  Note the amazing lack of higher order IMD products. 

 

 

Some of the early Yaesu class A rigs did blow up in class A.  That eventually got fixed.  The cooling fan makes much more noise in class A due to the low efficiency of class A.  The trade-off is a super clean signal if you run no ALC.  (W6XX fixed the ALC in his Mk V.)

 

Today it appears most people running WSJT X are running big power with a linear amp. This past weekend on 14,074 kHz my S meter was consistently at S9+20 dB.  It appears few FT8 operators are running 50 watts. 

 

It would be desirable if every rig published a duty cycle rating for each mode.  I would guess a 50% duty cycle is a reasonable starting point absent data from the manufacturer.

 

Rob, NC0B

 

 

From: main@WSJTX.groups.io [mailto:main@WSJTX.groups.io] On Behalf Of Chuck Moore via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2021 9:09 PM
To: main@WSJTX.groups.io
Subject: Re: [WSJTX] WSJT-X & FTdx-5000 #Yaesu #txaudio #Yaesu

 

I take my cue from two things for power output. One is the derating used by

the radio manufacturer for the radio when running AM vs SSB.  My rig is

rated for 200 Watts PEP SSB by Yaesu. For AM they specify 50 Watts. That

to me indicates that the safe upper end for high duty cycle SSB is going to

be about 50 Watts for my radio.  Also on the rig here there is an option to run

the finals in a very linear mode (Class A) as opposed to acceptable AB mode.

Running in the ultra linear mode as it is called results in the SSB output being

capped at 70 Watts PEP.  Since the extra 20 watts will be less than about 1.5

dB increase in power it hardly seems worth it to risk the health of the finals.

I will venture a guess that the repair bill for replacing the finals will be around

$450 - $600. Heap on that the shipping costs will be about $120.00 each way.

I will opt for the 4:1 derating and set the max threshold at 50 watts "for the rig"

when using digital modes.

 

Other than the occasional "Oops" of forgetting to reduce the power out, I cap

the RF out at 25 watts. I will generally use less power if PSKReporter and/or

HamSpots is returning reports of my Signal Strength being better than -5 dB.

 

Regards

 

Chuck WD4HXG

 

 

On August 3, 2021 at 10:13 PM, "Joe WB9SBD" <nss@...> wrote:

In a FTDX-5000MP,

How much power can we safely run in the high duty digital modes?

Like RTTY and the stuff in the WSJT-X magic box.

My old Kenwood TS-430S 100 watt rig, 100 watts OVERHEAT

Like 50 watts and the fan would never ever come on

75 watts was like a 50% duty cycle with the fan, so figured that was a
safe level.

My IC-7300, 100 Watts Period regardless of mode, the temp gauge may rise
1 bar at the most,
I have no idea what it takes to get that radio Hot!

But now this 200 Watt FTDX-5000MP

What power level ends up like the 7300, where the fan rarely comes on if
at all.

and what power level is like the 430S where the fan runs like half of
the time?

Joe WB9SBD




Chuck Moore <wd4hxg@...>
 

Rob

Thank you for correcting my misuse of the word derating and  erroneous conclusions about the 5000. 

Regards

Chuck

On Aug 4, 2021, at 1:08 AM, Rob Sherwood <rob@...> wrote:



Chuck,

 

The reason the FTdx-5000 is rated at 200 watts PEP SSB and 50 watts on AM is at 50 watts AM the PEP power level is also 200 watts PEP, assuming the rig actually upward modulates 100%.  It has nothing to do with derating the radio from a duty cycle standpoint.  The rig may well have a duty cycle rating, but it has nothing to do with SSB vs. AM.  In the AM days of the past, a carrier input of 1 KW was 4 KW PEP, and with class C 70% efficient was 3 KW PEP output.

 

The 5000 MP MK V in class A has an outstandingly clean signal.  Here is a screen capture from W6XX (now SK). Note these values are in the more conservative dBc method. Add 6 dB to both values for the PEP method used in advertisements and ARRL testing.  Note the amazing lack of higher order IMD products. 

 

<image002.png>

 

Some of the early Yaesu class A rigs did blow up in class A.  That eventually got fixed.  The cooling fan makes much more noise in class A due to the low efficiency of class A.  The trade-off is a super clean signal if you run no ALC.  (W6XX fixed the ALC in his Mk V.)

 

Today it appears most people running WSJT X are running big power with a linear amp. This past weekend on 14,074 kHz my S meter was consistently at S9+20 dB.  It appears few FT8 operators are running 50 watts. 

 

It would be desirable if every rig published a duty cycle rating for each mode.  I would guess a 50% duty cycle is a reasonable starting point absent data from the manufacturer.

 

Rob, NC0B

 

 

From: main@WSJTX.groups.io [mailto:main@WSJTX.groups.io] On Behalf Of Chuck Moore via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2021 9:09 PM
To: main@WSJTX.groups.io
Subject: Re: [WSJTX] WSJT-X & FTdx-5000 #Yaesu #txaudio #Yaesu

 

I take my cue from two things for power output. One is the derating used by

the radio manufacturer for the radio when running AM vs SSB.  My rig is

rated for 200 Watts PEP SSB by Yaesu. For AM they specify 50 Watts. That

to me indicates that the safe upper end for high duty cycle SSB is going to

be about 50 Watts for my radio.  Also on the rig here there is an option to run

the finals in a very linear mode (Class A) as opposed to acceptable AB mode.

Running in the ultra linear mode as it is called results in the SSB output being

capped at 70 Watts PEP.  Since the extra 20 watts will be less than about 1.5

dB increase in power it hardly seems worth it to risk the health of the finals.

I will venture a guess that the repair bill for replacing the finals will be around

$450 - $600. Heap on that the shipping costs will be about $120.00 each way.

I will opt for the 4:1 derating and set the max threshold at 50 watts "for the rig"

when using digital modes.

 

Other than the occasional "Oops" of forgetting to reduce the power out, I cap

the RF out at 25 watts. I will generally use less power if PSKReporter and/or

HamSpots is returning reports of my Signal Strength being better than -5 dB.

 

Regards

 

Chuck WD4HXG

 

 

On August 3, 2021 at 10:13 PM, "Joe WB9SBD" <nss@...> wrote:

In a FTDX-5000MP,

How much power can we safely run in the high duty digital modes?

Like RTTY and the stuff in the WSJT-X magic box.

My old Kenwood TS-430S 100 watt rig, 100 watts OVERHEAT

Like 50 watts and the fan would never ever come on

75 watts was like a 50% duty cycle with the fan, so figured that was a
safe level.

My IC-7300, 100 Watts Period regardless of mode, the temp gauge may rise
1 bar at the most,
I have no idea what it takes to get that radio Hot!

But now this 200 Watt FTDX-5000MP

What power level ends up like the 7300, where the fan rarely comes on if
at all.

and what power level is like the 430S where the fan runs like half of
the time?

Joe WB9SBD