locked WSJT Sensitivity V MSHV #why ?


Derek Brown
 

On 6m this evening, monitoring using WSJT-X 2.4 on FT8, noticed a lot of G Calls working stateside, but I could not "see " the Stateside calls in the waterfall or decoded ? So I swopped to MSHV and lo and behold, I am seeing US Calls decoded and both sides of the various QSO's, not really noticed this before, but is MSHV that more sensitive than WSJT-X or have I just got a few settings wrong ?

I prefer to use WSJT-X as it has a well defined working interface, whereas MSHV does not seem so "automatic" or again is there something I have overlooked ?

Help !

Derek G8ECI Long time lurker and user of WSJT-X

73 es dx from JO03 square, apologies to the stations that replied to my CQ calls tonight, I could not get MHSV to auto TX correctly !


Mike G0LQI
 

Hi Derek,
Just out of curiosity, I ran MSHV in parallel with WSJT-X on 10 m just now, getting about a dozen decodes each cycle. I found that MSHV never got more decodes and that every two or three cycles, WSJT-X got one or two more low S/N signals.
73 Mike G0LQI


Derek Brown
 

Hi Mike,

Well I tried it again this morning, both in parallel in the same RX cycle on 6M and MSHV always gets more decodes than WSJT-X, in some instances I cannot even seen the signals on the waterfall on WSJT-X, but i can hear them on the speaker of the IC7610, I will try and do a screen save of one or two RX cycles to show what I am getting, the RX signal into WSJT is in the green around 30 to 40 and in th green on MHSV, at least this morning I worked 9K2, A71, A45 and A65 on 6m allin auto sequence, on MSHV, but I did check WSJT, but there was no decodes from them there !!! Weird. Same radio, same PC just different programs.

73 Derek G8ECI

On Sunday, 6 June 2021, 13:05:35 BST, Mike G0LQI via groups.io <mfmhb9@...> wrote:


Hi Derek,
Just out of curiosity, I ran MSHV in parallel with WSJT-X on 10 m just now, getting about a dozen decodes each cycle. I found that MSHV never got more decodes and that every two or three cycles, WSJT-X got one or two more low S/N signals.
73 Mike G0LQI




Joe Subich, W4TV
 

On 2021-06-06 9:01 AM, Derek Brown via groups.io wrote:

in some instances I cannot even seen the signals on the waterfall on WSJT-X, but i can hear them on the speaker of the IC7610,
Sounds like you do not have the audio levels set up properly.

73,

... Joe, W4TV


On 2021-06-06 9:01 AM, Derek Brown via groups.io wrote:
Hi Mike,
Well I tried it again this morning, both in parallel in the same RX cycle on 6M and MSHV always gets more decodes than WSJT-X, in some instances I cannot even seen the signals on the waterfall on WSJT-X, but i can hear them on the speaker of the IC7610, I will try and do a screen save of one or two RX cycles to show what I am getting, the RX signal into WSJT is in the green around 30 to 40 and in th green on MHSV, at least this morning I worked 9K2, A71, A45 and A65 on 6m allin auto sequence, on MSHV, but I did check WSJT, but there was no decodes from them there !!! Weird. Same radio, same PC just different programs.
73 Derek G8ECI
On Sunday, 6 June 2021, 13:05:35 BST, Mike G0LQI via groups.io <mfmhb9@...> wrote:
Hi Derek,
Just out of curiosity, I ran MSHV in parallel with WSJT-X on 10 m just now, getting about a dozen decodes each cycle. I found that MSHV never got more decodes and that every two or three cycles, WSJT-X got one or two more low S/N signals.
73 Mike G0LQI


Derek Brown
 

Hi Joe,

I would agree, but MSHV is using the exactly same connection (USB Codec) from the 7610 into the same sound card, without altering any of the settings in the 7610 ! I as said, even running WSJT-X (2.4) and MSHV at that same time ( it does seem to work) I received more decodes on MSHV than WSJT, so I cannot see input signal levels playing a part.

Derek G8ECI

On Sunday, 6 June 2021, 15:47:12 BST, Joe Subich, W4TV <lists@...> wrote:


On 2021-06-06 9:01 AM, Derek Brown via groups.io wrote:

> in some instances I cannot even seen the signals on the waterfall on
> WSJT-X, but i can hear them on the speaker of the IC7610,

Sounds like you do not have the audio levels set up properly.

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV


On 2021-06-06 9:01 AM, Derek Brown via groups.io wrote:
>  Hi Mike,
> Well I tried it again this morning, both in parallel in the same RX cycle on 6M and MSHV always gets more decodes than WSJT-X, in some instances I cannot even seen the signals on the waterfall on WSJT-X, but i can hear them on the speaker of the IC7610, I will try and do a screen save of one or two RX cycles to show what I am getting, the RX signal into WSJT is in the green around 30 to 40 and in th green on MHSV, at least this morning I worked 9K2, A71, A45 and A65 on 6m allin auto sequence, on MSHV, but I did check WSJT, but there was no decodes from them there !!! Weird. Same radio, same PC just different programs.
> 73 Derek G8ECI
>
>      On Sunday, 6 June 2021, 13:05:35 BST, Mike G0LQI via groups.io <mfmhb9=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

>  Hi Derek,
> Just out of curiosity, I ran MSHV in parallel with WSJT-X on 10 m just now, getting about a dozen decodes each cycle. I found that MSHV never got more decodes and that every two or three cycles, WSJT-X got one or two more low S/N signals.
> 73 Mike G0LQI
>






Gary - AG0N
 

On Jun 6, 2021, at 07:01, Derek Brown via groups.io <g8eci@...> wrote:

in some instances I cannot even seen the signals on the waterfall on WSJT-X, but i can hear them on the speaker of the IC7610,
It would seem to me that if you can hear it on the speaker, you should see it on the waterfall. I suspect you don’t have your waterfall parameters set correctly. Every installation is different. I can see things on the waterfall that I can only intermittently hear in the headphones. The waterfall sees signals I don’t hear. It also sees signals that are below decode threshold if you set it sensitive enough.


Gary - AG0N


Joe Subich, W4TV
 

I as said, even running WSJT-X (2.4) and MSHV at
that same time ( it does seem to work) I received more decodes on MSHV
than WSJT, so I cannot see input signal levels playing a part.
*DOES NOT MATTER* It depends entirely on what the application expects
for audio input. The fact that you do not see anything on the WSJTX
waterfall indicates that you have the audio input level set too low
for WSJTX.

Follow the audio set-up instructions in the WSJTX documentation to set
"no signal" band noise from your transceiver to +30. Start WSJTX
*BEFORE* any other digital software and make sure your sound card
is set to 48 KHz sample rate *NOT* 44.1 KHz.

It's all in the documentation.

73,

... Joe, W4TV


On 2021-06-06 1:02 PM, Derek Brown via groups.io wrote:
Hi Joe,
I would agree, but MSHV is using the exactly same connection (USB Codec) from the 7610 into the same sound card, without altering any of the settings in the 7610 ! I as said, even running WSJT-X (2.4) and MSHV at that same time ( it does seem to work) I received more decodes on MSHV than WSJT, so I cannot see input signal levels playing a part.
Derek G8ECI
On Sunday, 6 June 2021, 15:47:12 BST, Joe Subich, W4TV <lists@...> wrote:
On 2021-06-06 9:01 AM, Derek Brown via groups.io wrote:

> in some instances I cannot even seen the signals on the waterfall on
> WSJT-X, but i can hear them on the speaker of the IC7610,
Sounds like you do not have the audio levels set up properly.
73,
    ... Joe, W4TV
On 2021-06-06 9:01 AM, Derek Brown via groups.io wrote:
>  Hi Mike,
> Well I tried it again this morning, both in parallel in the same RX
cycle on 6M and MSHV always gets more decodes than WSJT-X, in some instances I cannot even seen the signals on the waterfall on WSJT-X, but i can hear them on the speaker of the IC7610, I will try and do a screen save of one or two RX cycles to show what I am getting, the RX signal into WSJT is in the green around 30 to 40 and in th green on MHSV, at least this morning I worked 9K2, A71, A45 and A65 on 6m allin auto sequence, on MSHV, but I did check WSJT, but there was no decodes from them there !!! Weird. Same radio, same PC just different programs.
> 73 Derek G8ECI
>
>      On Sunday, 6 June 2021, 13:05:35 BST, Mike G0LQI via groups.io
<mfmhb9@... <mailto:yahoo.com@groups.io>> wrote:
>
>  Hi Derek,
> Just out of curiosity, I ran MSHV in parallel with WSJT-X on 10 m
just now, getting about a dozen decodes each cycle. I found that MSHV never got more decodes and that every two or three cycles, WSJT-X got one or two more low S/N signals.
> 73 Mike G0LQI
>


Jim Brown
 

Interesting. last season, many of us found that on 6M, JTDX often provided decodes that WSJT-X missed. I don't know of any users of MSHV out here (NorCal), and I've never tried it.

73, Jim K9YC

On 6/6/2021 3:33 AM, Mike G0LQI via groups.io wrote:
Hi Derek,
Just out of curiosity, I ran MSHV in parallel with WSJT-X on 10 m just now, getting about a dozen decodes each cycle. I found that MSHV never got more decodes and that every two or three cycles, WSJT-X got one or two more low S/N signals.


Derek Brown
 

Ok chaps,

WSJT started before MSHV and sampling set at 48Khz, input level +30 with control from USB output of IC7610, quick test on 10m after a couple of periods, it would seem that WSJT and MSHV are about the same, but back on 6M, two weakish signals on 6M decoded on MSHV, but nothing decoded or seem in the waterfall on WSJT !! I can see noise on the waterfall on WSJT but no signals, I do see the same amount of noise on the waterfall of MSHV, but I do see and decode signals, weird, will probably continue to use both but maybe WSJT for HF and MSHV for 6M, will do some comparisions on 144 Mhz as well. BTW the PC is a Win 10 i5 processer,16 G ram and 1TB hd, if that helps, generic sound board though I guess, though that would all be software ? as I/O are via USB.

Derek G8ECI



On Sunday, 6 June 2021, 21:48:00 BST, Joe Subich, W4TV <lists@...> wrote:



>  I as said, even running WSJT-X (2.4) and MSHV at
> that same time ( it does seem to work) I received more decodes on MSHV
> than WSJT, so I cannot see input signal levels playing a part.

*DOES NOT MATTER*  It depends entirely on what the application expects
for audio input.  The fact that you do not see anything on the WSJTX
waterfall indicates that you have the audio input level set too low
for WSJTX.

Follow the audio set-up instructions in the WSJTX documentation to set
"no signal" band noise from your transceiver to +30.  Start WSJTX
*BEFORE* any other digital software and make sure your sound card
is set to 48 KHz sample rate *NOT* 44.1 KHz.

It's all in the documentation.

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV


On 2021-06-06 1:02 PM, Derek Brown via groups.io wrote:
> Hi Joe,
>
> I would agree, but MSHV is using the exactly same connection (USB Codec)
> from the 7610 into the same sound card, without altering any of the
> settings in the 7610 ! I as said, even running WSJT-X (2.4) and MSHV at
> that same time ( it does seem to work) I received more decodes on MSHV
> than WSJT, so I cannot see input signal levels playing a part.
>
> Derek G8ECI
>
> On Sunday, 6 June 2021, 15:47:12 BST, Joe Subich, W4TV
> <lists@...> wrote:
>
>
> On 2021-06-06 9:01 AM, Derek Brown via groups.io wrote:
>
>  > in some instances I cannot even seen the signals on the waterfall on
>  > WSJT-X, but i can hear them on the speaker of the IC7610,
>
> Sounds like you do not have the audio levels set up properly.
>
> 73,
>
>      ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
> On 2021-06-06 9:01 AM, Derek Brown via groups.io wrote:
>  >  Hi Mike,
>  > Well I tried it again this morning, both in parallel in the same RX
> cycle on 6M and MSHV always gets more decodes than WSJT-X, in some
> instances I cannot even seen the signals on the waterfall on WSJT-X, but
> i can hear them on the speaker of the IC7610, I will try and do a screen
> save of one or two RX cycles to show what I am getting, the RX signal
> into WSJT is in the green around 30 to 40 and in th green on MHSV, at
> least this morning I worked 9K2, A71, A45 and A65 on 6m allin auto
> sequence, on MSHV, but I did check WSJT, but there was no decodes from
> them there !!! Weird. Same radio, same PC just different programs.
>  > 73 Derek G8ECI
>  >
>  >      On Sunday, 6 June 2021, 13:05:35 BST, Mike G0LQI via groups.io
> <mfmhb9=yahoo.com@groups.io <mailto:yahoo.com@groups.io>> wrote:

>  >
>  >  Hi Derek,
>  > Just out of curiosity, I ran MSHV in parallel with WSJT-X on 10 m
> just now, getting about a dozen decodes each cycle. I found that MSHV
> never got more decodes and that every two or three cycles, WSJT-X got
> one or two more low S/N signals.
>  > 73 Mike G0LQI
>  >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>




Mike G0LQI
 

Hi Derek,
I've done some more testing on 6 m and 10 m and my conclusion is that, in general, they both get the same number of decodes. Very occasionally MSHV gets one or two more than WSJT-X, but more often WSJT-X gets more. Forgive me for asking, but have you got the decode depths set the same in both programs?
73 Mike G0LQI
PS My rig is an IC7600 - so has similar Icom audio codec to the IC7610.


Derek Brown
 

Hi Mike,

Think I have tried all decode levels on WSJT-X, normal, deep, etc, but have not changed anything on MSHV, its set as I installed, so default, what ever level that is, it cannot be very intensive, as it decodes very quickly.

As I said I tried 10m on both last night and they both seemed to get the same, although MHSV does it quicker, but going to 6M MSHV got two decodes immediately, but WSJT-X, did not get any, and the waterfall did show a signal and I could hear it as well, but nothing decoded, and before any gets in with the timing issue, that would effect both programs, I using an italian timing program which is perfect, have tried Meinberg, but always get an error message, never seems to install properly and I have tried many many times, on different PC's as well.

73 Derek. 

On Monday, 7 June 2021, 11:30:56 BST, Mike G0LQI via groups.io <mfmhb9@...> wrote:


Hi Derek,
I've done some more testing on 6 m and 10 m and my conclusion is that, in general, they both get the same number of decodes. Very occasionally MSHV gets one or two more than WSJT-X, but more often WSJT-X gets more. Forgive me for asking, but have you got the decode depths set the same in both programs?

73 Mike G0LQI

PS My rig is an IC7600 - so has similar Icom audio codec to the IC7610.




Derek Brown
 

OK,

I have attached a snip of the WSJT-X decodes and the MSHV decodes for the same time this afternoon on 6M, look at the corresponding signal levels of the same calls, also note that the time period are exactly the same, please note there is indication of the sound level of WSJT-X because the monitor is off, so do not go off one and say you had no input, it was hovering around the 40dB mark before I hit stop. I can not find a decode level setting on MSHV, but it was set to normal on WSJT-X.

There are just so many more decodes on MHSV than WSJT-X, so any ideas ?

Derek G8ECI

On Monday, 7 June 2021, 12:58:18 BST, Derek G8ECI <g8eci@...> wrote:


Hi Mike,

Think I have tried all decode levels on WSJT-X, normal, deep, etc, but have not changed anything on MSHV, its set as I installed, so default, what ever level that is, it cannot be very intensive, as it decodes very quickly.

As I said I tried 10m on both last night and they both seemed to get the same, although MHSV does it quicker, but going to 6M MSHV got two decodes immediately, but WSJT-X, did not get any, and the waterfall did show a signal and I could hear it as well, but nothing decoded, and before any gets in with the timing issue, that would effect both programs, I using an italian timing program which is perfect, have tried Meinberg, but always get an error message, never seems to install properly and I have tried many many times, on different PC's as well.

73 Derek. 

On Monday, 7 June 2021, 11:30:56 BST, Mike G0LQI via groups.io <mfmhb9@...> wrote:


Hi Derek,
I've done some more testing on 6 m and 10 m and my conclusion is that, in general, they both get the same number of decodes. Very occasionally MSHV gets one or two more than WSJT-X, but more often WSJT-X gets more. Forgive me for asking, but have you got the decode depths set the same in both programs?

73 Mike G0LQI

PS My rig is an IC7600 - so has similar Icom audio codec to the IC7610.




Bill Somerville
 

Derek,

the only way to analyze the issue you report is for you to provide a .WAV file recorded by WSJT-X along with a list of the messages that you think should have been decoded. Anything else is simply subjective speculation.

73
Bill
G4WJS.

On 07/06/2021 16:55, Derek Brown via groups.io wrote:

OK,

I have attached a snip of the WSJT-X decodes and the MSHV decodes for the same time this afternoon on 6M, look at the corresponding signal levels of the same calls, also note that the time period are exactly the same, please note there is indication of the sound level of WSJT-X because the monitor is off, so do not go off one and say you had no input, it was hovering around the 40dB mark before I hit stop. I can not find a decode level setting on MSHV, but it was set to normal on WSJT-X.

There are just so many more decodes on MHSV than WSJT-X, so any ideas ?

Derek G8ECI

On Monday, 7 June 2021, 12:58:18 BST, Derek G8ECI <g8eci@...> wrote:


Hi Mike,

Think I have tried all decode levels on WSJT-X, normal, deep, etc, but have not changed anything on MSHV, its set as I installed, so default, what ever level that is, it cannot be very intensive, as it decodes very quickly.

As I said I tried 10m on both last night and they both seemed to get the same, although MHSV does it quicker, but going to 6M MSHV got two decodes immediately, but WSJT-X, did not get any, and the waterfall did show a signal and I could hear it as well, but nothing decoded, and before any gets in with the timing issue, that would effect both programs, I using an italian timing program which is perfect, have tried Meinberg, but always get an error message, never seems to install properly and I have tried many many times, on different PC's as well.

73 Derek. 

On Monday, 7 June 2021, 11:30:56 BST, Mike G0LQI via groups.io <mfmhb9@...> wrote:


Hi Derek,
I've done some more testing on 6 m and 10 m and my conclusion is that, in general, they both get the same number of decodes. Very occasionally MSHV gets one or two more than WSJT-X, but more often WSJT-X gets more. Forgive me for asking, but have you got the decode depths set the same in both programs?

73 Mike G0LQI



Martin G0HDB
 

On Mon, Jun 7, 2021 at 06:00 PM, Derek Brown wrote:
 
....  I using an italian timing program which is perfect, have tried Meinberg, but always get an error message, never seems to install properly and I have tried many many times, on different PC's as well.
Derek:

Take a look at the guidance on how (and where) to install and configure the Meinberg NTP app on GM8ARV's website at:

http://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/setup.html

--
Martin G0HDB


Gary - K7EK
 



I recommend BKTIMESYNC at https://www.maniaradio.it/en/bkttimesync.html. It works when
D4,  Meinberg, and others fail. I have BKTIMESYNC on all of my computers. It works exceptionally
well. 

Like the others, disregard virus/trojan warnings as they are false positives.

Best regards,

Gary, K7EK

Radcliff, KY (EM77at)

--

 



On Tuesday, June 8, 2021, 5:08:08 PM EDT, Martin G0HDB <marting0hdb@...> wrote:


On Mon, Jun 7, 2021 at 06:00 PM, Derek Brown wrote:

 
....  I using an italian timing program which is perfect, have tried Meinberg, but always get an error message, never seems to install properly and I have tried many many times, on different PC's as well.
Derek:


Take a look at the guidance on how (and where) to install and configure the Meinberg NTP app on GM8ARV's website at:

http://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/setup.html

--
Martin G0HDB




Derek Brown
 

Currently I am in the middle of a house sale, and only get a few hours to operate, without trying to record wave files and now even waterfall displays. Although I tried something else today, I went into the program files list of windows and uninstalled all the older programs of WSJT-X, including the latest version and Install the latest RC version, that seemed to get 70% of the decodes that MSHV decoded, but the corresponding signal reports show between the two programs are still between 7 to 10 dB lower on WSJT-X have MSHV, when if I get the inclination to record a wave file I will. But until then I will keep on using both programs, not sure if comparing the waterfall display would be very helpful, as they seem very different in resolution, you can see the MSHV waterfall in the snips I sent a day or so back, the each 15 second period is much larger than the corresponding 15 sec period of the WSJT-X program. But again, I do see more noise in the WSJT-X than the MSHV, but how's that happening when they are using all the same signal sources and processing ?

So far there does not seem to be any straight forward answer, perhaps someone with more experience, would like also to install MSHV and make some comparsions ? Just a thought....I am NOT running down WSJT-X in any shape or form, its just what I am seeing and not able to understand why, I prefer to use WSJT-X, because it has many features that the other does not, which can be a bit frustrating when you think just klicking on a callsign would start the Auto sequence, mmmmm not in MSHV then you need to klick Start Auto Program !! or is there another shortcut I am missing, the operating manual is not the easiest to follow....well not to my oldish eyes and mind !! It has some other annoying habits as well, but thats another gripe.

73 Derek G8ECI,

On Tuesday, 8 June 2021, 22:08:12 BST, Martin G0HDB <marting0hdb@...> wrote:


On Mon, Jun 7, 2021 at 06:00 PM, Derek Brown wrote:

 
....  I using an italian timing program which is perfect, have tried Meinberg, but always get an error message, never seems to install properly and I have tried many many times, on different PC's as well.
Derek:


Take a look at the guidance on how (and where) to install and configure the Meinberg NTP app on GM8ARV's website at:

http://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/setup.html

--
Martin G0HDB




Steve Kavanagh
 

It's interesting to note that, in the example in #25583, the messages decoded in both programs show a much better SNR in MSHV than in WSJT-X.

73,
Steve VE3SMA


Derek Brown
 

Hi Steve,

Thats exactly the point I am making !!

In reference to the timing program, yes I am using BKTIMESYNC on all my pc's.

73 Derek G8ECI

On Wednesday, 9 June 2021, 07:25:56 BST, Steve Kavanagh via groups.io <sjkavanagh1@...> wrote:


It's interesting to note that, in the example in #25583, the messages decoded in both programs show a much better SNR in MSHV than in WSJT-X.

73,
Steve VE3SMA




ve4cy
 

I'll second BktTimeSync..  It's not well known but works well.  I have a USB GPS dongle and the software accepts the output so I can set my PC clock using GPS time.  (It also uses NNTP if you have no GPS capability).

73 de Jim VE4CY


From: "Derek Brown via groups.io" <g8eci@...>
To: "main" <main@WSJTX.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, June 9, 2021 1:39:23 AM
Subject: Re: [WSJTX] WSJT Sensitivity V MSHV #why ?

Hi Steve,

Thats exactly the point I am making !!

In reference to the timing program, yes I am using BKTIMESYNC on all my pc's.

73 Derek G8ECI

On Wednesday, 9 June 2021, 07:25:56 BST, Steve Kavanagh via groups.io <sjkavanagh1@...> wrote:


It's interesting to note that, in the example in #25583, the messages decoded in both programs show a much better SNR in MSHV than in WSJT-X.

73,
Steve VE3SMA







Gordon GI6ATZ
 

Hi Derek

What are your settings for the waterfall/wide graph?

Gordon
GI6ATZ