Tail ending my signal #FT8


Bobby Chandler
 

When someone 'tail ends' my QSO and after logging, I double click the station calling, the Tx stays on the station I have been working. 
Is this normal, or should my Tx freq. move to the station I am calling?

Bobby/N4AU


Tom V. Segalstad
 

This depends on if you have clicked «Hold Tx Freq» or not.

 

73 from Tom, LA4LN

 

 

Fra: Bobby Chandler
Sendt: torsdag 28. januar 2021 kl. 13.08
Til: main@WSJTX.groups.io
Emne: [WSJTX] Tail ending my signal #FT8 #FT8 #FT8

 

When someone 'tail ends' my QSO and after logging, I double click the station calling, the Tx stays on the station I have been working. 
Is this normal, or should my Tx freq. move to the station I am calling?

Bobby/N4AU

 


--
Tom (LA4LN)


Martin G0HDB
 

On Thu, Jan 28, 2021 at 12:08 PM, Bobby Chandler wrote:
When someone 'tail ends' my QSO and after logging, I double click the station calling, the Tx stays on the station I have been working. 
Is this normal, or should my Tx freq. move to the station I am calling?
Hi Bobby, it's usually preferable not to transmit on the frequency of the station you're calling or working; the generally-recommended practice is to have the 'Hold Tx Freq' option checked and to place your red Tx cursor on what looks like a clear slot on the waterfall.  This will ensure that you're always Tx'ing at the same spot and your Tx frequency isn't hopping around the band every time you call someone or when a new station calls you and you click on their call.

In my experience this almost always seems to work better, although I've very, very occasionally found that a station will only work me if I transmit on their frequency - I don't know why this might be.  Perhaps some people don't fully understand the concept of 'split'...  :-)

--
Martin G0HDB


Bobby Chandler
 

I'm aware of 'Hold Tx Freq' etc. and do when the band is not so crowded and there is no open hole to park. What I mean is, I answer a station calling CQ and we complete the QSO and I log it. Someone calls me on another freq (tail ends my call) and when I double click the calling station, my Tx does not move to the calling station, as you would think it should. It also happens to me at times if I'm calling CQ and my QSO partner calls another station on my Freq.

Bobby/N4AU
--


n4au@outlook.com
n4au@arrl.net


mchenryproj <mchenryproj@...>
 

This does happen to me as well, on occasion.

Sean
KB8JNE

Spell checked by the NSA.

On Thu, Jan 28, 2021 at 1:50 PM, Bobby Chandler
<n4au@...> wrote:
I'm aware of 'Hold Tx Freq' etc. and do when the band is not so crowded
and there is no open hole to park. What I mean is, I answer a station
calling CQ and we complete the QSO and I log it. Someone calls me on
another freq (tail ends my call) and when I double click the calling
station, my Tx does not move to the calling station, as you would think
it should. It also happens to me at times if I'm calling CQ and my QSO
partner calls another station on my Freq.

Bobby/N4AU
--






Jim Preston N6VH
 


On 1/28/2021 10:49 AM, Bobby Chandler wrote:
I'm aware of 'Hold Tx Freq' etc. and do when the band is not so crowded and there is no open hole to park. What I mean is, I answer a station calling CQ and we complete the QSO and I log it. Someone calls me on another freq (tail ends my call) and when I double click the calling station, my Tx does not move to the calling station, as you would think it should. It also happens to me at times if I'm calling CQ and my QSO partner calls another station on my Freq.

Bobby/N4AU

Bobby,

That's the point of Hold TX Freq. Your frequency shouldn't move to the other station's frequency. Assuming you have a clear freq to start with, their should be no problem. Granted, ia very few cases it might be better to move to his freq, but not every time.

As to your QSO partner calling another station on your freq, that might not actually be the case. When your partner answers your CQ, he is very possible transmitting on another freq. Your receive freq then has moved to his xmit freq. When your QSO is over, your receive freq has not moved, so it is still copying him on his xmit freq when he calls CQ.

Granted, this isn't the case when he has answered you CQ on your xmit freq.

73,

Jim N6VH


Gary - AG0N
 

On Jan 28, 2021, at 11:49, Bobby Chandler <n4au@outlook.com> wrote:

when I double click the calling station, my Tx does not move to the calling station, as you would think it should. It also happens to me at times if I'm calling CQ and my QSO partner calls another station on my Freq.
This is the desired operation. Otherwise, people call you, complete the QSO and then try to hang onto the frequency. By choosing a clear frequency, you can stay put and never have to click anything other than Enable to call your next station. You call me on my frequency, and I’ll instantly move up or down the band to another clear spot unless I’m so busy I don’t notice it.

73, Gary - AG0N


Martin G0HDB
 

On Thu, Jan 28, 2021 at 06:49 PM, Bobby Chandler wrote:
... when I double click the calling
station, my Tx does not move to the calling station, as you would think
it should.
Your Tx frequency will only move to the calling station's frequency if you DON'T have 'Hold Tx Freq' checked.  When it is checked then your Tx frequency WON'T move when you double-click on the calling station, which is exactly what's intended and expected (and is also the preferred modus operandi).

You also said that you use 'Hold Tx Freq' when the band isn't crowded and there's no open hole to park in - I think you've got something slightly the wrong way round there!  Surely, if the band isn't crowded then there should be plenty of holes across the passband in which to park and hold your Tx frequency??!!

--
Martin G0HDB


Robert Lorenzini
 

Please use split. This has been gone over so many times but there
are always those who do not listen or are stubborn.

Bob - wd6dod

On 1/28/2021 10:49 AM, Bobby Chandler wrote:
I'm aware of 'Hold Tx Freq' etc. and do when the band is not so crowded and there is no open hole to park. What I mean is, I answer a station calling CQ and we complete the QSO and I log it. Someone calls me on another freq (tail ends my call) and when I double click the calling station, my Tx does not move to the calling station, as you would think it should. It also happens to me at times if I'm calling CQ and my QSO partner calls another station on my Freq.

Bobby/N4AU





Jon Ermels
 

That's what I do. If they then stay where I was xmitting, I don't log it. I think some of the new hams must think they should pile on top of the calling freq because it didn't used to be a nuisance like it is now.  95% of it comes from US stations and 5% from DX.

73 de NØIGU Jon


On Thursday, January 28, 2021, 01:19:19 PM CST, Gary - AG0N <mcduffie@...> wrote:




> On Jan 28, 2021, at 11:49, Bobby Chandler <n4au@...> wrote:
>
> when I double click the calling station, my Tx does not move to the calling station, as you would think it should. It also happens to me at times if I'm calling CQ and my QSO partner calls another station on my Freq.


This is the desired operation.   because 95% of the people, people call you, complete the QSO and then try to hang onto the frequency.  By choosing a clear frequency, you can stay put and never have to click anything other than Enable to call your next station.  You call me on my frequency, and I’ll instantly move up or down the band to another clear spot unless I’m so busy I don’t notice it. 

73, Gary - AG0N




 

I don’t mind if they call me on my frequency, why do you? There’s plenty more hertz on the band. We need to spread out a bit more.. Why are the only signals on the band in this 3 kHz plus half a dozen or so CW signals.

 

73 Phil GM3ZZA

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Jon Ermels via groups.io
Sent: 28 January 2021 19:32
To: main@WSJTX.groups.io
Subject: Re: [WSJTX] Tail ending my signal

 

That's what I do. If they then stay where I was xmitting, I don't log it. I think some of the new hams must think they should pile on top of the calling freq because it didn't used to be a nuisance like it is now.  95% of it comes from US stations and 5% from DX.

 

73 de NØIGU Jon

 

 

On Thursday, January 28, 2021, 01:19:19 PM CST, Gary - AG0N <mcduffie@...> wrote:

 

 

 


> On Jan 28, 2021, at 11:49, Bobby Chandler <n4au@...> wrote:
>
> when I double click the calling station, my Tx does not move to the calling station, as you would think it should. It also happens to me at times if I'm calling CQ and my QSO partner calls another station on my Freq.



This is the desired operation.   because 95% of the people, people call you, complete the QSO and then try to hang onto the frequency.  By choosing a clear frequency, you can stay put and never have to click anything other than Enable to call your next station.  You call me on my frequency, and I’ll instantly move up or down the band to another clear spot unless I’m so busy I don’t notice it. 

73, Gary - AG0N



 


--
73 Phil GM3ZZA


K8BL BOB LIDDY <k8bl@...>
 

Bobby,

People that answer your CQ are not actually on "your" frequency
because if you were transmitting on the Even time slot, they would
have had to call you on the Odd time slot and vice-versa. So, if they
begin to call CQ after your QSO, they would still be on the Odd time
slot while your would still be on the Even time slot. There would be
no interference unless either or both of you tried to have a new QSO
on that same frequency. That is exactly why we have been advised to
avoid having QSOs on the SAME frequency. There is plenty of audio
bandwidth to have a multitude of QSOs without interfering with each
other.

On the other hand, I've experienced many times that a station does not
answer unless I DO call them directly on their frequency. Why that is,
I've never figured out.

GL/73,   Bob  K8BL

On Thursday, January 28, 2021, 01:57:36 PM EST, mchenryproj via groups.io <mchenryproj=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:





This does happen to me as well, on occasion.

Sean
KB8JNE

Spell checked by the NSA.


  
  
On Thu, Jan 28, 2021 at 1:50 PM, Bobby Chandler
<n4au@outlook.com> wrote:


  
I'm aware of 'Hold Tx Freq' etc. and do when the band is not so crowded
and there is no open hole to park. What I mean is, I answer a station
calling CQ and we complete the QSO and I log it. Someone calls me on
another freq (tail ends my call) and when I double click the calling
station, my Tx does not move to the calling station, as you would think
it should. It also happens to me at times if I'm calling CQ and my QSO
partner calls another station on my Freq.

Bobby/N4AU
--


n4au@outlook.com
  n4au@arrl.net





Williams, G (af8c) <af8c@...>
 

Now it's time for clearing up another possible point of confusion.  Here is what I thought happens in FT8 with TX and RX disregarding use of fake-it and F&H.   I put my TX in a clear spot so as not to stomp on someone. Then I work several signals around the whole sub-band.  What I assume is that after a decode in the "other guys" computer, his computer knows where my signal was, and he
can send his replies wherever he wants.  And that in the middle of a QSO, while one of us is not transmitting, we can move our TX frequency before we transmit again. Then during the next each decode cycle me/their own computer reads all the RX signals and re-locates where the other guy's  in-QSO signal is at, after EACH 15-second cycle, to continue the QSO, so the signals can move around but only not while transmitting.  I will even test if this is true next time I am on.

If I am wrong, well, it's not as bad as a toothache.
--73, Glenn, AF8C

On 1/28/2021 2:31 PM, Jon Ermels via groups.io wrote:
That's what I do. If they then stay where I was xmitting, I don't log it. I think some of the new hams must think they should pile on top of the calling freq because it didn't used to be a nuisance like it is now.  95% of it comes from US stations and 5% from DX.

73 de NØIGU Jon


On Thursday, January 28, 2021, 01:19:19 PM CST, Gary - AG0N <mcduffie@...> wrote:




> On Jan 28, 2021, at 11:49, Bobby Chandler <n4au@...> wrote:
>
> when I double click the calling station, my Tx does not move to the calling station, as you would think it should. It also happens to me at times if I'm calling CQ and my QSO partner calls another station on my Freq.


This is the desired operation.   because 95% of the people, people call you, complete the QSO and then try to hang onto the frequency.  By choosing a clear frequency, you can stay put and never have to click anything other than Enable to call your next station.  You call me on my frequency, and I’ll instantly move up or down the band to another clear spot unless I’m so busy I don’t notice it. 

73, Gary - AG0N










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Reino Talarmo
 

>Now it's time for clearing up another possible point of confusion.  Here is what I thought happens in FT8 with TX and RX disregarding use of fake-it and F&H.   I put my TX in a clear spot so as not to stomp on someone. Then I work several signals around the whole sub-band.  What I assume is that after a decode in the "other guys" computer, his computer knows where my signal was, and he
can send his replies wherever he wants.  And that in the middle of a QSO, while one of us is not transmitting, we can move our TX frequency before we transmit again. Then during the next each decode cycle me/their own computer reads all the RX signals and re-locates where the other guy's  in-QSO signal is at, after EACH 15-second cycle, to continue the QSO, so the signals can move around but only not while transmitting.  I will even test if this is true next time I am on.

If I am wrong, well, it's not as bad as a toothache.
--73, Glenn, AF8

Hi Glenn,
1. I agree with F&H, but what do you mean by fake-it? If you refer to Split Fake it, then that is not an exception as it does *not* change you transmission frequency.
2. Nothing as such prevents you to send each 15 s timeslot at different frequency. *But* why you should do that in first place. On a “full” band there is a bigger possibility that you will transmit on top of somebody seen at the other end than when you keep the frequency where he copied it in first place. His RX is sitting on the frequency he received you in your previous transmission and the first decoding attempt will be done on that frequency giving a higher decoding probability.
Of course there are exception to that general rule due to changing QRM situation.

73, Reino OH3mA


Gary - AG0N
 

On Jan 28, 2021, at 12:43, Philip Rose via groups.io <gm3zza=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:

I don’t mind if they call me on my frequency, why do you?
Because then I have to move before making the next contact if they don’t.

Gary - AG0N


Robert Lorenzini
 

And you may have any unknown number of stations calling on your freq. some of
them don't stop calling even after you have made a contact. More repeats, more
interference. We have been over this numerous times and it always comes out
as poor form.

dod

On 1/28/2021 5:12 PM, Gary - AG0N wrote:

On Jan 28, 2021, at 12:43, Philip Rose via groups.io <gm3zza@...> wrote:

I don’t mind if they call me on my frequency, why do you?
Because then I have to move before making the next contact if they don’t.

Gary - AG0N





Jim Shorney
 

I don't move. Ops calling split will reach me. Ops calling on "my" frequency may or may not. IMO that's not a reason to move. The perceived problem will just follow you.

73

-Jim
NU0C


On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 18:12:27 -0700
"Gary - AG0N" <mcduffie@ag0n.net> wrote:

On Jan 28, 2021, at 12:43, Philip Rose via groups.io <gm3zza=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:

I don’t mind if they call me on my frequency, why do you?
Because then I have to move before making the next contact if they don’t.

Gary - AG0N


Williams, G (af8c) <af8c@...>
 

Hi Reino,

1. I didn't imply that fake-it would change my TX frequency.  I meant "I"  change my TX frequency.

2. I would not normally move my TX frequency like I wrote. But what I am writing about is what I believe might happen if I keep jumping my TX frequency, which is that in a new 15 second cycle the other guy's QSO in progress will find where I jumped to because in his next decode of me and my cycle-buddies that the "sort" will find me again.  Unless someone in the know either confirms or denies my theory, I am going to test it.  Like I said, I would not normally do that.

--73, Glenn, AF8C

On 1/28/2021 3:54 PM, Reino Talarmo via groups.io wrote:

>Now it's time for clearing up another possible point of confusion.  Here is what I thought happens in FT8 with TX and RX disregarding use of fake-it and F&H.   I put my TX in a clear spot so as not to stomp on someone. Then I work several signals around the whole sub-band.  What I assume is that after a decode in the "other guys" computer, his computer knows where my signal was, and he
can send his replies wherever he wants.  And that in the middle of a QSO, while one of us is not transmitting, we can move our TX frequency before we transmit again. Then during the next each decode cycle me/their own computer reads all the RX signals and re-locates where the other guy's  in-QSO signal is at, after EACH 15-second cycle, to continue the QSO, so the signals can move around but only not while transmitting.  I will even test if this is true next time I am on.

If I am wrong, well, it's not as bad as a toothache.
--73, Glenn, AF8

Hi Glenn,
1. I agree with F&H, but what do you mean by fake-it? If you refer to Split Fake it, then that is not an exception as it does *not* change you transmission frequency.
2. Nothing as such prevents you to send each 15 s timeslot at different frequency. *But* why you should do that in first place. On a “full” band there is a bigger possibility that you will transmit on top of somebody seen at the other end than when you keep the frequency where he copied it in first place. His RX is sitting on the frequency he received you in your previous transmission and the first decoding attempt will be done on that frequency giving a higher decoding probability.
Of course there are exception to that general rule due to changing QRM situation.

73, Reino OH3mA





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Jim Brown
 

On 1/28/2021 10:49 AM, Bobby Chandler wrote:
It also happens to me at times if I'm calling CQ and my QSO partner calls another station on my Freq.
Exactly why it is very bad manners to call someone on their frequency.

Best practice is to find a clear frequency on the waterfall, Shift-Click on it, and check the box for Hold TX Freq. Do this BEFORE you are ready to call someone. I do this every time I sit down to operate.

73, Jim K9YC


mchenryproj <mchenryproj@...>
 

Personally I see this as cutting the available bandwidth in half. It’s similar to telling everyone to run split. Takes 2 frequencies to make a QSO that way.  As I figure it, if someone is calling CQ, you double tap to answer and move to his frequency that’s normal in every other mode. If you are the station responding to someone’s call, at the end of the conversation, move off and find your own open spot OR, go find others to respond to.  The bad manners in the situation is taking over someone else’s spot if you are responding to someone’s call.  Not occupying 2 spots on the crowded bands to make a QSO.

 

This is different than wandering around the dial looking for people calling CQ to respond to in SSB or CW modes, mostly.  In other modes you wander around, find a station looking for a contact and park there and respond. When you are done you move off.  If you want to call CQ, find an empty spot and start calling.  Now – the notable bug in that ointment is that you can effectively “hear” multiple people calling and answering calls all at the same time in these digital modes where as in SSB or even CW, that’s not the case.  Yet, if you use an SDR with a spectrum display, you can still essentially “see” other conversations going on and don’t actually need to drive the dial to them.

 

I guess what I am saying is I don’t see why these digital modes should operate all that much differently from SSB and CW.  If you’re the guy calling, it’s your frequency.  If you responded to a call, don’t start calling stations before you move your transmit frequency off the other guys spot.  It should be that easy.

 

When I see folks QRZ page stating they won’t answer on their own frequency, I don’t bother with them as I see those folks as wasting bandwidth.   But hey, what do I know, right?

 

My 2 cents (not adjusted for inflation)

 

KB8JNE