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Locked 60 meters: Operating guidelines for FT8
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Nc8q-mesh@gelm.net <nc8q-mesh@...>
On 2/20/20 5:17 AM, Hasan Schiers N0AN
wrote:
Again, ARRL have *on multiple occasions* reported communications from IMHO, this discussion of operating FT8 on 60 meters deserves its own thread. From looking at the waterfall display (Wide Graph), it seems to me that a FT8 Tx frequency of 1500 indicates signals from 'dial frequency + 1500 Hz' to 'dial frequency + ~1548 Hz'. The get TX signals centered on 1500 Hz, would it not require setting WSJTX to 1476 Hz ? Chuck |
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Also, it clearly states that no more than one station transmit at any given time thus also limiting to a conversational rather than a transactional contact type. (If you hear a conversation, don't transmit, if you hear a CQ, answer it unless you hear someone else answering) Seannon, ag0ny
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Hasan Schiers N0AN
From the ARRL: These are channel-center frequencies, not the ones you tune your radio to. The NTIA told the FCC that hams "must assure that their signal is transmitted on the channel-center frequency." This means the amateur signal must be centered within the 2.8-kHz-wide channel. The FCC has provided scant guidance beyond suggesting--in a footnote that follows the NTIA's advice--that amateurs tune 1.5 kHz below the center-channel frequencies to be "on channel." Amateurs need to be sure that the tuning display readout reflects transmitted (ie, carrier) frequency (most do). Consult your transceiver's manual if you're not sure. From the ARRL: In addition, the FCC continues to require that all digital transmissions be centered on the channel-center frequencies, which the Report and Order defines as being 1.5 kHz above the suppressed carrier frequency of a transceiver operated in the Upper Sideband (USB) mode. This is typically the frequency shown on the frequency display. (Note that this does not say 1580, 1320, 700, ...it says 1.5 kHz) my comment, not ARRL's) http://www.arrl.org/60m-channel-allocation "Operating at strict channel-center frequencies may come as a disappointment to many, but cooperating with the NTIA is key to expanded privileges in the future. The channel center frequencies are":..snipped...60 meters
"Only one signal at a time is permitted on any channel." (From ARRL Band Poster) http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/Band%20Chart/Band%20Chart%20-%2011X17%20Color.pdf More on Center of Channel ( 1500 Hz) Requirement: "With your PSK31 software display configured to indicate audio frequencies, click your mouse cursor at the 1500 Hz mark (see below). With your radio in the USB mode, this marker indicates the center of the channel and it is the frequency on which you should be transmitting." There is no special exemption for FT8, the same center channel rule applies. In Summary from the ARRL: 1. Only one station may transmit at a time. 2. They must be at he CENTER of the allocated channel (1500 Hz) 3. NTIA has defined "on channel" as precisely 1.5 kHz below the assigned channel frequency. These are highly restrictive and have NOT been enforced. I posted my initial "Be Careful" message, because I was warned by someone familiar with the upcoming ARRL take-over of the FCC certified Monitoring Program, that once the new program had officially started : ENFORCEMENT WOULD BE FORTHCOMING and the enforcement will include referrals to the FCC for action. Unfortunately, the comment below reflects the attitude of many USA amateurs: "If the FCC is that concerned about legitimate FT8 use within that 2.8 KHz BW, they need to clarify their own rules and rationale and make this clarification known. Because right now, its as clear as mud. "Field Day" for lawyers, so to speak." As a result, the 60m requirements for digital, (FT8 included), have been summarily ignored if not outright violated. I, myself did so, because I did not understand how one could reasonably operate a full SSB bandwidth and that was ok, but could not use the entire 2.8 kHz bandwidth for multiple narrow band FT8 transmissions. It makes NO sense. But....the rule is unforgiving and I have been told they are going to enforce it. I have advocated one thing and one thing only: Be Careful. I don't have horse this race. It would be a shame, however, if we lost this allocation or someone would get a QSL card from the FCC because they refused to exercise some caution in the matter. 73, N0AN Hasan On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 5:41 AM Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:
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Gary - K7EK
I might add, 60m is secondary to the amateur radio service in the USA. USA amateurs must relinquish the frequency in the case of US military or government stations becoming active. That could include MARS, FEMA, etc. People have recently kept CQ'ing, DX'ing, ragchewing, etc, right on top of very publicized communications exercises. 60m is officially for interoperability between amateurs and the US Government, not our exclusive private oasis to use any way we see fit. I urge situational awareness when operating 60 meters in the USA. A US Government station may become active at any time without notice. That being the case it is critical that all amateur activity cease except in the case when our presence is solicited. This is a disaster waiting to happen. Should 60m activity continue as it has beeen over the last few years, I suspect that we will be under scrutiny and asked to justify continued use of 60 meters. I know this from personal experience as I operate one of those government stations on 60 meters on a recurring basis. Beware. Best regards, Gary, K7EK ---
On Thursday, February 20, 2020, 06:41:20 AM EST, Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <kd4iyi@...> wrote:
Also, it clearly states that no more than one station transmit at any given time thus also limiting to a conversational rather than a transactional contact type. (If you hear a conversation, don't transmit, if you hear a CQ, answer it unless you hear someone else answering) Seannon, ag0ny
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Jim Cooper
On 20 Feb 2020 at 7:54, Hasan Schiers N0AN wrote:
1. Only one station may transmit at a time.TOTALLY ABSURD ! Technically impossible. How can I tell if someone I can't hear is transmitting on that channel ? |
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Hasan Schiers N0AN
Take that up with the ARRL and what it actually means. If the freq is in use, you must desist. If you hear someone in qso on 1500 Hz already, you are not supposed to transmit. In any case, we are not to transmit at all , away from 1500 Hz. The rule is clear as a bell. It's a dumb rule. But it's clear. Read the items I quoted from the ARRL, NTIA and what was shared with the FCC about our digital operations on 60 meters. I didn't make it up and the CFR is NO HELP AT ALL, if the FCC and NTIA have issued interpretive guidelines, as well as the ARRL being asked to get Amateurs to comply. Has the FCC been good with communications about this? No Has the ARRL been well out in the open so we don't have to read silly stuff in fine print? No. Has there been any enforcement of the interpretive guidelines or "fine print". No. What I have been told, is that "It's coming" (enforcement). I shared it, do with it what you like, but don't say later, "No one every told us". They did. They did a lousy job of it. But it's there. Hasan On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 10:44 AM Jim Cooper <JTalert@...> wrote: On 20 Feb 2020 at 7:54, Hasan Schiers N0AN wrote: |
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Bruce N7XGR
Well Jim someone would say this, you must prearrange with the other station to make contact at a certain time to make the exchange and be coordinated with other stations wanting to use this 1500 Hz point on the waterfall. Well err, uhm I just said that, well dang-it it anyway!!! Bruce N7XGR On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 11:44 AM Jim Cooper <JTalert@...> wrote: On 20 Feb 2020 at 7:54, Hasan Schiers N0AN wrote: |
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Al <almay8@...>
Shsssssh nobody is pay any attention to this. There have been no complaints so it is not causing any interference or you would have heard about it by now the less said the better.
True Adventure Requires An Uncertain Outcome”
From: Hasan Schiers N0AN
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2020 9:56 AM To: WSJTX@groups.io Group Moderators Subject: Re: [WSJTX] 60 meters: Operating guidelines for FT8
Take that up with the ARRL and what it actually means. If the freq is in use, you must desist. If you hear someone in qso on 1500 Hz already, you are not supposed to transmit. In any case, we are not to transmit at all , away from 1500 Hz. The rule is clear as a bell. It's a dumb rule. But it's clear.
Read the items I quoted from the ARRL, NTIA and what was shared with the FCC about our digital operations on 60 meters. I didn't make it up and the CFR is NO HELP AT ALL, if the FCC and NTIA have issued interpretive guidelines, as well as the ARRL being asked to get Amateurs to comply.
Has the FCC been good with communications about this? No Has the ARRL been well out in the open so we don't have to read silly stuff in fine print? No. Has there been any enforcement of the interpretive guidelines or "fine print". No.
What I have been told, is that "It's coming" (enforcement).
I shared it, do with it what you like, but don't say later, "No one every told us". They did. They did a lousy job of it. But it's there. Hasan
On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 10:44 AM Jim Cooper <JTalert@...> wrote: On 20 Feb 2020 at 7:54, Hasan Schiers N0AN wrote:
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Hasan Schiers N0AN
Al, you must have missed this from the same thread you are posting to: This is from a Government Operator of one of the stations on 60 meters that has to put up with the current abuse of the 60m segment by US Amateurs: "Should 60m activity continue as it has been over the last few years, I suspect that we will be under scrutiny and asked to justify continued use of 60 meters. I know this from personal experience as I operate one of those government stations on 60 meters on a recurring basis. Beware." Best regards, Gary, K7EK I would hardly say this constitutes: "nobody is paying attention" Do you think these government services have not noticed and are not taking note, of our abuse of the grant, as K7EK indicates above? So our operational philosophy is "Do what we like,even though we know we are likely causing harmful interference, so long as none of us get caught", and on top of that, we agreed to abide by the conditions of the frequency grant and and then break our word and willfully violate the terms as if that means nothing? I sure hope you were making some sort of joke, because abusing our recently granted privileges in hopes of having them expanded in the future seems like a counterproductive approach. ☺
N0AN, Hasan On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 12:19 PM Al <almay8@...> wrote:
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Jim Brown
On 2/20/2020 8:44 AM, Jim Cooper wrote:
TOTALLY ABSURD ! Technically impossible.Good operating practice is to listen more than we transmit. If you're listening (decoding) during both periods, it's easy to tell where other signals are within the FT8/FT4,JT65/JT9 passband. My standard practice is to do exactly that -- listen for a while before transmitting, see who's on the band, then call stations I want to work. 73, Jim K9YC |
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David AD4TJ
This is exactly why I do very little with 60 meters! Too critical to stay within guidelines. They can't cite me if I don't operate there! David AD4TJ
On Thursday, February 20, 2020, 1:43:23 PM EST, Jim Brown <k9yc@...> wrote:
On 2/20/2020 8:44 AM, Jim Cooper wrote: > TOTALLY ABSURD ! Technically impossible. > > How can I tell if someone I can't hear is > transmitting on that channel ? Good operating practice is to listen more than we transmit. If you're listening (decoding) during both periods, it's easy to tell where other signals are within the FT8/FT4,JT65/JT9 passband. My standard practice is to do exactly that -- listen for a while before transmitting, see who's on the band, then call stations I want to work. 73, Jim K9YC |
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Jim Brown
On 2/20/2020 10:43 AM, Jim Brown wrote:
If you're listening (decoding) during both periods, it's easy to tell where other signals are within the FT8/FT4,JT65/JT9 passband.Sorry, I failed to remember the specific issues with 60M requiring anything but SSB to centered in the channel. 73, Jim K9YC |
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Angelo Bione
FYI: I have seen W1AW operating on this band recently.
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Richard Bertrand Larson
FT8 Operating Guide Copyright © 2019 ZL2iFB P a g e | 67 The FT8 modulation scheme is 8-FSK i.e. an 8-bit transmission using 8 different audio. The tones separated by just 6.25 Hz, giving an overall transmission bandwidth under optimal conditions of 50 Hz. On 2/20/2020 2:36 PM, Angelo Bione via
Groups.Io wrote:
FYI: I have seen W1AW operating on this band recently. |
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I’m not aware of any complaints by the NTIA against radio amateurs for using FT8 on 60m.
The volunteer monitor program nor the FCC are sending out violation notices. I keep abreast of enforcement issues and I’ve asked numerous departments at ARRL. This isn’t a concern with anyone there. ARRL doesn’t have any awards for 60m contacts. So anyone doing 60m contacts there does it for their own enjoyment. 73 Ria, N2RJ |
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Floyd Sense
Gary - K7EK: In the interest of improving our knowledge of 60M operation, can you tell us the nature of the communications you are involved in from the government station? Who do you communicate with and what kind of information is exchanged? Are these regularly scheduled contacts, or are they broadcasts or do they occur when some specific emergency related event occurs?
73, Floyd - K8AC |
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Larry Burke K5RK
Thank you, Ria, for your informed response!
In your related e-mail you state: “Some countries do not have channelization on 60m. In 9Y I can use 1.5kw from 5.25 to 5.45MHz without restriction. It’s just another HF band.” Exactly. Also interesting that this is possible in the Americas (Trinidad & Tobago, Grenada, etc.) with no apparent issues.
Are there any efforts underway to make the band continuous in the US? The IARU recommended this back in 2015, albeit implemented at 15 watts in most countries. Some basic reg changes would sure clear up much of the confusion with the use of FT8 and other modes on this band.
BTW, a good compilation of authorizations by country can be found at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/60-meter_band
Larry K5RK
From: WSJTX@groups.io <WSJTX@groups.io> On Behalf Of Ria, N2RJ
I’m not aware of any complaints by the NTIA against radio amateurs for using FT8 on 60m. |
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We haven’t petitioned the FCC and NTIA, AFAIK. (but I can verify that) 73 Ria, N2RJ On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 1:35 PM Larry Burke <wi5a@...> wrote:
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Richard Bertrand Larson
So if I tune my radio to channel 3 @5357.0 mhz with a center frequency of
On 2/21/2020 7:41 AM, Ria, N2RJ wrote:
I’m not aware of any complaints by the NTIA against radio amateurs for using FT8 on 60m. |
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Hassan, I'm going to pick out a bit of info here... you stated that being able to use full bandwidth for SSB, but only the bandwidth of a single transmission on digital, which for this band is CW, (on off, not modulated) PSK31, PACTORIII, and RTTY, RTTY seems to have been added begrudgingly, but the important things of note are 1. WE ARE SECONDARY ON THIS BAND! , not primary, so we exist here only as long as we do things the way we won't get in trouble, we may get a slice of the band at some point, but we need to prove our ability to abide by the rules. 2, the band poster is pretty clear on the rules for this band, it really is, 3. when you consider the types of use the primary users of the band have for it, (governmental) it makes sense that it would be one station transmitting at a time, period, if you transmit over someone else's transmission, you are causing interference. if you can't hear the station, it's unintentional, if you do it and you KNOW there's someone transmitting, it's INTENTIONAL INTERFERENCE, and against FCC regs anyway...like if you're hearing a pileup and everyone's running 50 watts, and you decide to heck with them, I'm going to make this contact if it kills me and slam them with a beam and full legal limit, you're breaking the intent of the rules. going back to the use, we are secondary, if you have 35 stations clogging up the channel, it would take much more time to tell each person QRT than the one or two that it would be. think of it this way, we are "BORROWING" the car... what rules should you follow when you borrow the car? the ones the person that let you use the car has, along with all local laws... don't get it dirty, don't wreck it, don't leave dirty diapers or used condoms in it don't do something that makes the person that has the car say I don't think I want to let you borrow the car again. the rules on this band are restrictive for a reason, just as their own internal rules are on the band. I'm not even entirely convinced that it's legal for us to use FT8 on this band AT ALL because they don't specify it, they mention CW, PSK31, PACTORIII (not AMTOR or any other similar modes) and begrudgingly RTTY Seannon, AG0NY Only one signal at a time is permitted on any channel." (From ARRL Band Poster) http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/Band%20Chart/Band%20Chart%20-%2011X17%20Color.pdf More on Center of Channel ( 1500 Hz) Requirement: "With your PSK31 software display configured to indicate audio frequencies, click your mouse cursor at the 1500 Hz mark (see below). With your radio in the USB mode, this marker indicates the center of the channel and it is the frequency on which you should be transmitting." There is no special exemption for FT8, the same center channel rule applies. In Summary from the ARRL: 1. Only one station may transmit at a time. 2. They must be at he CENTER of the allocated channel (1500 Hz) 3. NTIA has defined "on channel" as precisely 1.5 kHz below the assigned channel frequency. These
are highly restrictive and have NOT been enforced. I posted my initial
"Be Careful" message, because I was warned by someone familiar with the
upcoming ARRL take-over of the FCC certified Monitoring Program, that
once the new program had officially started : ENFORCEMENT WOULD BE
FORTHCOMING and the enforcement will include referrals to the FCC for
action. Unfortunately, the comment below reflects the attitude of many USA amateurs: "If the FCC is that concerned about legitimate FT8 use within that 2.8 KHz BW, they need to clarify their own rules and rationale and make this clarification known. Because right now, its as clear as mud. "Field Day" for lawyers, so to speak." But the rules ARE clear here, there's a power level, compared to known quantity, they specifically give both CW center frequencies and USB frequencies as "Channels" they also give specific emissions types that are allowed, also, don't transmit when you can hear a station transmitting (only one station transmitting at any time) now, as for the rationale? that's not for us really, we have the rules to follow. As
a result, the 60m requirements for digital, (FT8 included), have been
summarily ignored if not outright violated. I, myself did so, because I
did not understand how one could reasonably operate a full SSB bandwidth
and that was ok, but could not use the entire 2.8 kHz bandwidth for
multiple narrow band FT8 transmissions. It makes NO sense. But....the rule is unforgiving and I have been told they are going to enforce it. It makes much more sense when you consider the government as primary, with us as secondary, it would take much more time to contact 20-30 stations to tell them to QRT than one or two governments would not try to stuff a ton of traffic in a single channel like this, they go for reliable communications over efficiency, unlike hams Only one signal at a time is permitted on any channel." (From ARRL Band Poster) http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/Band%20Chart/Band%20Chart%20-%2011X17%20Color.pdf More on Center of Channel ( 1500 Hz) Requirement: "With your PSK31 software display configured to indicate audio frequencies, click your mouse cursor at the 1500 Hz mark (see below). With your radio in the USB mode, this marker indicates the center of the channel and it is the frequency on which you should be transmitting." There is no special exemption for FT8, the same center channel rule applies. In Summary from the ARRL: 1. Only one station may transmit at a time. 2. They must be at he CENTER of the allocated channel (1500 Hz) 3. NTIA has defined "on channel" as precisely 1.5 kHz below the assigned channel frequency. These
are highly restrictive and have NOT been enforced. I posted my initial
"Be Careful" message, because I was warned by someone familiar with the
upcoming ARRL take-over of the FCC certified Monitoring Program, that
once the new program had officially started : ENFORCEMENT WOULD BE
FORTHCOMING and the enforcement will include referrals to the FCC for
action. Unfortunately, the comment below reflects the attitude of many USA amateurs: "If the FCC is that concerned about legitimate FT8 use within that 2.8 KHz BW, they need to clarify their own rules and rationale and make this clarification known. Because right now, its as clear as mud. "Field Day" for lawyers, so to speak." The rules are pretty well spelled out, look at the chart above, there's channel info and conversions, , center channels, power requirements in relation to a specific antenna, and emissions modes (PSK31, PACTORIII not AMTOR or similar modes and RTTY, so it's questionable as to the legality of FT8 here anyway. As
a result, the 60m requirements for digital, (FT8 included), have been
summarily ignored if not outright violated. I, myself did so, because I
did not understand how one could reasonably operate a full SSB bandwidth
and that was ok, but could not use the entire 2.8 kHz bandwidth for
multiple narrow band FT8 transmissions. It makes NO sense. But....the rule is unforgiving and I have been told they are going to enforce it. It makes a lot more sense when you consider the PRIMARY on the band, and not us as amateurs that are secondary. governments would use this as close to a clear channel for simplicity's sake especially true in emergency communications, or wartime, so, if you hear someone transmitting, wait, don't transmit on top of them, it could be life or death. We as hams like to make the case for efficiency, the government for reliable communications I
have advocated one thing and one thing only: Be Careful. I don't have
horse this race. It would be a shame, however, if we lost this
allocation or someone would get a QSL card from the FCC because they
refused to exercise some caution in the matter. I
have advocated one thing and one thing only: Be Careful. I don't have
horse this race. It would be a shame, however, if we lost this
allocation or someone would get a QSL card from the FCC because they
refused to exercise some caution in the matter. On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 7:55 AM Hasan Schiers N0AN <hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:
-- “It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”
Nikola Tesla |
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