locked frequencies for 160 - 6m?


K8BL BOB LIDDY <k8bl@...>
 

As long as we're discussing the Frequency List, I noticed that doing
the Reset does not provide the 60M Frequency for FT8.

I've inserted 5.357 MHz in my List. There is a fair bit of activity there
and many DX Stations to work nightly. It's easy to find a clear spot.

73,    Bob  K8BL


Hasan Schiers N0AN
 

Re: 60m

Be very careful about 60m in the USA. The spread of FT8 activity away from 1500 Hz may well be in violation of FCC rules. I received a warning that enforcement of this rule was going to start shortly with the onset of the new ARRL Monitoring program, wherein violations will be forwarded to the FCcCfor enforcement.

I'd be careful.
73, N0AN

Hasan


On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 4:26 PM K8BL BOB LIDDY <k8bl@...> wrote:
As long as we're discussing the Frequency List, I noticed that doing
the Reset does not provide the 60M Frequency for FT8.

I've inserted 5.357 MHz in my List. There is a fair bit of activity there
and many DX Stations to work nightly. It's easy to find a clear spot.

73,    Bob  K8BL








Bruce N7XGR
 

Then what we all need to do is start doing this,
These people communicate by whistling tones that is understood by the receiver.
This seems to be the same as the FT8 tones.  What is the difference between a whistled tone and a FT8 tone?
We can whistle tones anywhere in the 2800 Hz USB transmit bandwidth.
What about other countries?  Will the FCC enforce this to countries outside of the US boarder?

Bruce  N7XGR


On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 7:09 PM Hasan Schiers N0AN <hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:
Re: 60m

Be very careful about 60m in the USA. The spread of FT8 activity away from 1500 Hz may well be in violation of FCC rules. I received a warning that enforcement of this rule was going to start shortly with the onset of the new ARRL Monitoring program, wherein violations will be forwarded to the FCcCfor enforcement.

I'd be careful.
73, N0AN

Hasan

On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 4:26 PM K8BL BOB LIDDY <k8bl@...> wrote:
As long as we're discussing the Frequency List, I noticed that doing
the Reset does not provide the 60M Frequency for FT8.

I've inserted 5.357 MHz in my List. There is a fair bit of activity there
and many DX Stations to work nightly. It's easy to find a clear spot.

73,    Bob  K8BL









Hasan Schiers N0AN
 

According to the precise definition in the rules the entire 2800 Hz spectrum is NOT AVAILABLE!

Only one frequency is permitted and that is 1500 Hz. No moving around, no spreading out, period. Applies only to USA stations.

That is exactly what I was warned about. The rule is clear and it is equally clear it was not being enforced. It is going to be enforced, that is what I was told. 

Take it for what it's worth,  I have no investment either way.

73, N0AN 

Hasan


On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 6:39 PM Bruce N7XGR <n7xgr1@...> wrote:
Then what we all need to do is start doing this,
These people communicate by whistling tones that is understood by the receiver.
This seems to be the same as the FT8 tones.  What is the difference between a whistled tone and a FT8 tone?
We can whistle tones anywhere in the 2800 Hz USB transmit bandwidth.
What about other countries?  Will the FCC enforce this to countries outside of the US boarder?

Bruce  N7XGR

On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 7:09 PM Hasan Schiers N0AN <hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:
Re: 60m

Be very careful about 60m in the USA. The spread of FT8 activity away from 1500 Hz may well be in violation of FCC rules. I received a warning that enforcement of this rule was going to start shortly with the onset of the new ARRL Monitoring program, wherein violations will be forwarded to the FCcCfor enforcement.

I'd be careful.
73, N0AN

Hasan

On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 4:26 PM K8BL BOB LIDDY <k8bl@...> wrote:
As long as we're discussing the Frequency List, I noticed that doing
the Reset does not provide the 60M Frequency for FT8.

I've inserted 5.357 MHz in my List. There is a fair bit of activity there
and many DX Stations to work nightly. It's easy to find a clear spot.

73,    Bob  K8BL










Herb Blue - WB8ASI
 

I will practice my whistle to stay on 1500.

On February 19, 2020 at 10:04 PM Hasan Schiers N0AN <hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:

According to the precise definition in the rules the entire 2800 Hz spectrum is NOT AVAILABLE!

Only one frequency is permitted and that is 1500 Hz. No moving around, no spreading out, period. Applies only to USA stations.

That is exactly what I was warned about. The rule is clear and it is equally clear it was not being enforced. It is going to be enforced, that is what I was told. 

Take it for what it's worth,  I have no investment either way.

73, N0AN 

Hasan

On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 6:39 PM Bruce N7XGR < n7xgr1@...> wrote:
Then what we all need to do is start doing this,
These people communicate by whistling tones that is understood by the receiver.
This seems to be the same as the FT8 tones.  What is the difference between a whistled tone and a FT8 tone?
We can whistle tones anywhere in the 2800 Hz USB transmit bandwidth.
What about other countries?  Will the FCC enforce this to countries outside of the US boarder?

Bruce  N7XGR

On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 7:09 PM Hasan Schiers N0AN < hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:
Re: 60m

Be very careful about 60m in the USA. The spread of FT8 activity away from 1500 Hz may well be in violation of FCC rules. I received a warning that enforcement of this rule was going to start shortly with the onset of the new ARRL Monitoring program, wherein violations will be forwarded to the FCcCfor enforcement.

I'd be careful.
73, N0AN

Hasan

On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 4:26 PM K8BL BOB LIDDY < k8bl@...> wrote:
As long as we're discussing the Frequency List, I noticed that doing
the Reset does not provide the 60M Frequency for FT8.

I've inserted 5.357 MHz in my List. There is a fair bit of activity there
and many DX Stations to work nightly. It's easy to find a clear spot.

73,    Bob  K8BL











 


neil_zampella
 

This comes up often, the reason 60 meter frequencies have not been added as the rules for 60m access are different around the globe.  Its up to the local use to insert those frequencies.

Neil, KN3ILZ



On 2/19/2020 5:26 PM, K8BL BOB LIDDY wrote:

As long as we're discussing the Frequency List, I noticed that doing
the Reset does not provide the 60M Frequency for FT8.

I've inserted 5.357 MHz in my List. There is a fair bit of activity there
and many DX Stations to work nightly. It's easy to find a clear spot.

73,    Bob  K8BL








    


K8BL BOB LIDDY <k8bl@...>
 

FT8 uses 8-FSK Modulation with 6.25 Hz spacing. It is
not one discreet tone. Therefore, it would be impossible
to ONLY use one tone at 1500 Hz to exchange information
using FT8 on 60M or any other Band.

I'm seeing plenty of QSOs on 60M tonight from all across
NA and EU. My 10W to an end-fed LW at 20Ft works out
quite well.

GL/73,   Bob  K8BL

On Wednesday, February 19, 2020, 09:14:13 PM CST, Herb Blue <wb8asi@...> wrote:

I will practice my whistle to stay on 1500. 

  On February 19, 2020 at 10:04 PM Hasan Schiers N0AN <hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:


  According to the precise definition in the rules the entire 2800 Hz spectrum is NOT AVAILABLE!
  


  Only one frequency is permitted and that is 1500 Hz. No moving around, no spreading out, period. Applies only to USA stations.

  


  That is exactly what I was warned about. The rule is clear and it is equally clear it was not being enforced. It is going to be enforced, that is what I was told. 

  


  Take it for what it's worth,  I have no investment either way.

  


  73, N0AN 

  

  Hasan




  
  On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 6:39 PM Bruce N7XGR < n7xgr1@...> wrote:


  
  
  Then what we all need to do is start doing this,

  http://www.openculture.com/2013/03/speaking_in_whistles_the_whistled_language_of_oaxaca_mexico.html

  These people communicate by whistling tones that is understood by the receiver.

  This seems to be the same as the FT8 tones.  What is the difference between a whistled tone and a FT8 tone?

  We can whistle tones anywhere in the 2800 Hz USB transmit bandwidth.

  What about other countries?  Will the FCC enforce this to countries outside of the US boarder?

  


  Bruce  N7XGR




  
  On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 7:09 PM Hasan Schiers N0AN < hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:


  
  Re: 60m
  


  Be very careful about 60m in the USA. The spread of FT8 activity away from 1500 Hz may well be in violation of FCC rules. I received a warning that enforcement of this rule was going to start shortly with the onset of the new ARRL Monitoring program, wherein violations will be forwarded to the FCcCfor enforcement.

  


  I'd be careful.

  73, N0AN


  Hasan
  
  On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 4:26 PM K8BL BOB LIDDY < k8bl@...> wrote:


  As long as we're discussing the Frequency List, I noticed that doing
the Reset does not provide the 60M Frequency for FT8.

I've inserted 5.357 MHz in my List. There is a fair bit of activity there
and many DX Stations to work nightly. It's easy to find a clear spot.

73,    Bob  K8BL


Bruce N7XGR
 

This is from, 47 CFR Part 97 - September 23 2014-2

(h) 60 m band: (1) In the 5330.5-5406.4 kHz band (60 m band), amateur stations may transmit only on the five center frequencies specified in the
table below. In order to meet this requirement, control operators of stations transmitting phone, data, and RTTY emissions (emission designators
2K80J3E, 2K80J2D, and 60H0J2B, respectively) may set the carrier frequency 1.5 kHz below the center frequency as specified in the table below. For
CW emissions (emission designator 150HA1A), the carrier frequency is set to the center frequency. Amateur operators shall ensure that their emissions
do not occupy more than 2.8 kHz centered on each of these center frequencies.

It only states that CW is to be set at the 1.5 KHz center frequency point.
The last sentence is the boundary limit for phone, data and RTTY emissions.
Notice what is missing in the sentence for CW emissions, it does not include
data and RTTY modes.
If the FCC wanted to specify that the transmission of CW, data and RTTY they would have
worded it that these will be on the channel center frequency like in this case 5358.5 KHz.
Take 2.8 KHz divide by 2 is 1.4 KHz.  Center channel is 5358.5, subtract 1.4 KHz, is 5357.1,
add 1.4 gives you 5359.9. The limits are 5357.1 to 5359.9.  Notice the 2.8 KHz centered,
that to me is the reference point for the limits.  We are staying within these limits.
I do believe by now that the FCC would have sent notice and the ARRL will then issue
a bulletin informing all US Hams to cease FT8 activity in 60 meters especially on channel 3 (5357 KHz)
unless the transmission is on 5358.5 KHz or 1.5 KHz on the waterfall when the VFO is on 5357 KHz.

Bruce  N7XGR


On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 10:14 PM Herb Blue <WB8ASI@...> wrote:
I will practice my whistle to stay on 1500.
On February 19, 2020 at 10:04 PM Hasan Schiers N0AN <hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:

According to the precise definition in the rules the entire 2800 Hz spectrum is NOT AVAILABLE!

Only one frequency is permitted and that is 1500 Hz. No moving around, no spreading out, period. Applies only to USA stations.

That is exactly what I was warned about. The rule is clear and it is equally clear it was not being enforced. It is going to be enforced, that is what I was told. 

Take it for what it's worth,  I have no investment either way.

73, N0AN 

Hasan

On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 6:39 PM Bruce N7XGR < n7xgr1@...> wrote:
Then what we all need to do is start doing this,
These people communicate by whistling tones that is understood by the receiver.
This seems to be the same as the FT8 tones.  What is the difference between a whistled tone and a FT8 tone?
We can whistle tones anywhere in the 2800 Hz USB transmit bandwidth.
What about other countries?  Will the FCC enforce this to countries outside of the US boarder?

Bruce  N7XGR

On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 7:09 PM Hasan Schiers N0AN < hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:
Re: 60m

Be very careful about 60m in the USA. The spread of FT8 activity away from 1500 Hz may well be in violation of FCC rules. I received a warning that enforcement of this rule was going to start shortly with the onset of the new ARRL Monitoring program, wherein violations will be forwarded to the FCcCfor enforcement.

I'd be careful.
73, N0AN

Hasan

On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 4:26 PM K8BL BOB LIDDY < k8bl@...> wrote:
As long as we're discussing the Frequency List, I noticed that doing
the Reset does not provide the 60M Frequency for FT8.

I've inserted 5.357 MHz in my List. There is a fair bit of activity there
and many DX Stations to work nightly. It's easy to find a clear spot.

73,    Bob  K8BL











 


Hasan Schiers N0AN
 

Bob, 
Of course you are seeing them all over the place, and that is exactly what we are being warned about. I used to approach things exactly as you have and was subsequently told that these  "convenient" self-interpretations are going to result in notice of violations when the new monitoring program starts.

I will look for the precise wording I was sent a few weeks ago, and anyone who wants to can argue it out with the ARRL  Keep in mind  that the Monitoring program will be run by the ARRL, and they will be sending out notices and making referrals to the FCC for enforcement. 

73, N0AN

Hasan


On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 10:09 PM K8BL BOB LIDDY <k8bl@...> wrote:
FT8 uses 8-FSK Modulation with 6.25 Hz spacing. It is
not one discreet tone. Therefore, it would be impossible
to ONLY use one tone at 1500 Hz to exchange information
using FT8 on 60M or any other Band.

I'm seeing plenty of QSOs on 60M tonight from all across
NA and EU. My 10W to an end-fed LW at 20Ft works out
quite well.

GL/73,   Bob  K8BL

On Wednesday, February 19, 2020, 09:14:13 PM CST, Herb Blue <wb8asi@...> wrote:

I will practice my whistle to stay on 1500. 

>  On February 19, 2020 at 10:04 PM Hasan Schiers N0AN <hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:
>
>
>  According to the precise definition in the rules the entire 2800 Hz spectrum is NOT AVAILABLE!
>  
>
>
>  Only one frequency is permitted and that is 1500 Hz. No moving around, no spreading out, period. Applies only to USA stations.
>
>  
>
>
>  That is exactly what I was warned about. The rule is clear and it is equally clear it was not being enforced. It is going to be enforced, that is what I was told. 
>
>  
>
>
>  Take it for what it's worth,  I have no investment either way.
>
>  
>
>
>  73, N0AN 
>
>  
>
>  Hasan
>
>
>
>
>  
>  On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 6:39 PM Bruce N7XGR < n7xgr1@...> wrote:
>
>
>>  
>>  
>>  Then what we all need to do is start doing this,
>>
>>  http://www.openculture.com/2013/03/speaking_in_whistles_the_whistled_language_of_oaxaca_mexico.html
>>
>>  These people communicate by whistling tones that is understood by the receiver.
>>
>>  This seems to be the same as the FT8 tones.  What is the difference between a whistled tone and a FT8 tone?
>>
>>  We can whistle tones anywhere in the 2800 Hz USB transmit bandwidth.
>>
>>  What about other countries?  Will the FCC enforce this to countries outside of the US boarder?
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>>  Bruce  N7XGR
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  
>>  On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 7:09 PM Hasan Schiers N0AN < hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>  
>>>  Re: 60m
>>>  
>>>
>>>
>>>  Be very careful about 60m in the USA. The spread of FT8 activity away from 1500 Hz may well be in violation of FCC rules. I received a warning that enforcement of this rule was going to start shortly with the onset of the new ARRL Monitoring program, wherein violations will be forwarded to the FCcCfor enforcement.
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>
>>>  I'd be careful.
>>>
>>>  73, N0AN
>>>
>>>
>>>  Hasan

>>>  
>>>  On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 4:26 PM K8BL BOB LIDDY < k8bl@...> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>  As long as we're discussing the Frequency List, I noticed that doing
>>>> the Reset does not provide the 60M Frequency for FT8.
>>>>
>>>> I've inserted 5.357 MHz in my List. There is a fair bit of activity there
>>>> and many DX Stations to work nightly. It's easy to find a clear spot.
>>>>
>>>> 73,    Bob  K8BL
 


 


Hasan Schiers N0AN
 

Again, ARRL have *on multiple occasions* reported communications from
FCC Enforcement staff (and NTIA who are responsible for the "60 M
band") reminding US licensed amateurs that 97.303(h) requires using
*identical* audio frequency and carrier offsets so that the transmitted
signal is centered exactly on the middle of the assigned "Channel" -
not generating a random offset within a 2.7 KHz "band".

This is what I was sent, along with a direct quote from the ARRL that was even more specific forbidding the spreading out of USA signals away from 1500 Hz on 60m. I'm still looking for it. Once I saw the direct quote from ARRL about this issue, I stopped moving away from band center.

If I find the other one, I'll post it. If you have questions contact ARRL.
73
Hasan


On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 4:26 PM K8BL BOB LIDDY <k8bl@...> wrote:
As long as we're discussing the Frequency List, I noticed that doing
the Reset does not provide the 60M Frequency for FT8.

I've inserted 5.357 MHz in my List. There is a fair bit of activity there
and many DX Stations to work nightly. It's easy to find a clear spot.

73,    Bob  K8BL








K8BL BOB LIDDY <k8bl@...>
 

N0AN,

The Official Observer Program used to do an adequate job of informing
Amateurs of proper Band usage. Where are they these days?

As I said before, FT8 uses 8-FSK Modulation with 6.25 Hz spacing. It is
 not one discreet tone. Therefore, it would be impossible
 to ONLY use one tone at 1500 Hz to exchange information
 using FT8 on 60M or any other Band. 

GL/73,       Bob  K8BL/5

On Thursday, February 20, 2020, 03:55:49 AM CST, Hasan Schiers N0AN <hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:





Bob, 
Of course you are seeing them all over the place, and that is exactly what we are being warned about. I used to approach things exactly as you have and was subsequently told that these  "convenient" self-interpretations are going to result in notice of violations when the new monitoring program starts.

I will look for the precise wording I was sent a few weeks ago, and anyone who wants to can argue it out with the ARRL  Keep in mind  that the Monitoring program will be run by the ARRL, and they will be sending out notices and making referrals to the FCC for enforcement. 

73, N0AN

Hasan

On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 10:09 PM K8BL BOB LIDDY <k8bl@...> wrote:
FT8 uses 8-FSK Modulation with 6.25 Hz spacing. It is
not one discreet tone. Therefore, it would be impossible
to ONLY use one tone at 1500 Hz to exchange information
using FT8 on 60M or any other Band.

I'm seeing plenty of QSOs on 60M tonight from all across
NA and EU. My 10W to an end-fed LW at 20Ft works out
quite well.

GL/73,   Bob  K8BL

On Wednesday, February 19, 2020, 09:14:13 PM CST, Herb Blue <wb8asi@...> wrote:

I will practice my whistle to stay on 1500. 

  On February 19, 2020 at 10:04 PM Hasan Schiers N0AN <hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:


  According to the precise definition in the rules the entire 2800 Hz spectrum is NOT AVAILABLE!
  


  Only one frequency is permitted and that is 1500 Hz. No moving around, no spreading out, period. Applies only to USA stations.

  


  That is exactly what I was warned about. The rule is clear and it is equally clear it was not being enforced. It is going to be enforced, that is what I was told. 

  


  Take it for what it's worth,  I have no investment either way.

  


  73, N0AN 

  

  Hasan




  
  On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 6:39 PM Bruce N7XGR < n7xgr1@...> wrote:


  
  
  Then what we all need to do is start doing this,

  http://www.openculture.com/2013/03/speaking_in_whistles_the_whistled_language_of_oaxaca_mexico.html

  These people communicate by whistling tones that is understood by the receiver.

  This seems to be the same as the FT8 tones.  What is the difference between a whistled tone and a FT8 tone?

  We can whistle tones anywhere in the 2800 Hz USB transmit bandwidth.

  What about other countries?  Will the FCC enforce this to countries outside of the US boarder?

  


  Bruce  N7XGR




  
  On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 7:09 PM Hasan Schiers N0AN < hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:


  
  Re: 60m
  


  Be very careful about 60m in the USA. The spread of FT8 activity away from 1500 Hz may well be in violation of FCC rules. I received a warning that enforcement of this rule was going to start shortly with the onset of the new ARRL Monitoring program, wherein violations will be forwarded to the FCcCfor enforcement.

  


  I'd be careful.

  73, N0AN


  Hasan
  
  On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 4:26 PM K8BL BOB LIDDY < k8bl@...> wrote:


  As long as we're discussing the Frequency List, I noticed that doing
the Reset does not provide the 60M Frequency for FT8.

I've inserted 5.357 MHz in my List. There is a fair bit of activity there
and many DX Stations to work nightly. It's easy to find a clear spot.

73,    Bob  K8BL


 


K8BL BOB LIDDY <k8bl@...>
 

Bruce,

Well done! Your research and explanation makes perfect
sense when one understands exactly how FT8 works.

I'll plan to stay above 1500 Hz on FT8 with my VFO set
at 5.357 MHz in the future.

TNX/73,     Bob  K8BL/5

On Thursday, February 20, 2020, 12:13:08 AM CST, Bruce N7XGR <n7xgr1@...> wrote:





This is from, 47 CFR Part 97 - September 23 2014-2

(h) 60 m band: (1) In the 5330.5-5406.4 kHz band (60 m band), amateur stations may transmit only on the five center frequencies specified in the
table below. In order to meet this requirement, control operators of stations transmitting phone, data, and RTTY emissions (emission designators
2K80J3E, 2K80J2D, and 60H0J2B, respectively) may set the carrier frequency 1.5 kHz below the center frequency as specified in the table below. For
CW emissions (emission designator 150HA1A), the carrier frequency is set to the center frequency. Amateur operators shall ensure that their emissions
do not occupy more than 2.8 kHz centered on each of these center frequencies.

It only states that CW is to be set at the 1.5 KHz center frequency point.
The last sentence is the boundary limit for phone, data and RTTY emissions.
Notice what is missing in the sentence for CW emissions, it does not include
data and RTTY modes.
If the FCC wanted to specify that the transmission of CW, data and RTTY they would have
worded it that these will be on the channel center frequency like in this case 5358.5 KHz.
Take 2.8 KHz divide by 2 is 1.4 KHz.  Center channel is 5358.5, subtract 1.4 KHz, is 5357.1,
add 1.4 gives you 5359.9. The limits are 5357.1 to 5359.9.  Notice the 2.8 KHz centered,
that to me is the reference point for the limits.  We are staying within these limits.
I do believe by now that the FCC would have sent notice and the ARRL will then issue
a bulletin informing all US Hams to cease FT8 activity in 60 meters especially on channel 3 (5357 KHz)
unless the transmission is on 5358.5 KHz or 1.5 KHz on the waterfall when the VFO is on 5357 KHz.

Bruce  N7XGR


On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 10:14 PM Herb Blue <WB8ASI@...> wrote:
  
  
  I will practice my whistle to stay on 1500.

  On February 19, 2020 at 10:04 PM Hasan Schiers N0AN <hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:


  According to the precise definition in the rules the entire 2800 Hz spectrum is NOT AVAILABLE!
  


  Only one frequency is permitted and that is 1500 Hz. No moving around, no spreading out, period. Applies only to USA stations.

  


  That is exactly what I was warned about. The rule is clear and it is equally clear it was not being enforced. It is going to be enforced, that is what I was told. 

  


  Take it for what it's worth,  I have no investment either way.

  


  73, N0AN 

  

  Hasan




  
  On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 6:39 PM Bruce N7XGR < n7xgr1@...> wrote:


  
  
  Then what we all need to do is start doing this,

  http://www.openculture.com/2013/03/speaking_in_whistles_the_whistled_language_of_oaxaca_mexico.html

  These people communicate by whistling tones that is understood by the receiver.

  This seems to be the same as the FT8 tones.  What is the difference between a whistled tone and a FT8 tone?

  We can whistle tones anywhere in the 2800 Hz USB transmit bandwidth.

  What about other countries?  Will the FCC enforce this to countries outside of the US boarder?

  


  Bruce  N7XGR




  
  On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 7:09 PM Hasan Schiers N0AN < hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:


  
  Re: 60m
  


  Be very careful about 60m in the USA. The spread of FT8 activity away from 1500 Hz may well be in violation of FCC rules. I received a warning that enforcement of this rule was going to start shortly with the onset of the new ARRL Monitoring program, wherein violations will be forwarded to the FCcCfor enforcement.

  


  I'd be careful.

  73, N0AN


  Hasan




  
  On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 4:26 PM K8BL BOB LIDDY < k8bl@...> wrote:


  As long as we're discussing the Frequency List, I noticed that doing
the Reset does not provide the 60M Frequency for FT8.

I've inserted 5.357 MHz in my List. There is a fair bit of activity there
and many DX Stations to work nightly. It's easy to find a clear spot.

73,    Bob  K8BL










  
 



Bob Lewis
 

The signal is not limited to one tone (SSB is certainly more than one tone). The requirement is that whatever bandwidth the signal occupies MUST be centered on the assigned channel. That is standard government and military operating practice which was originally intended for the use of voice, CW, and RTTY signals. Personally, it doesn't make a lot of common sense for narrow modes like FT8 but the government doesn't seem to want to give on the issue. However, one point perhaps is that if they permit the channel to be filled with many individual signals from individual stations spread out over the channel then then the government has a much bigger problem trying to clear the channel for their use.

-----Original Message-----
From: WSJTX@groups.io [mailto:WSJTX@groups.io] On Behalf Of K8BL BOB LIDDY
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2020 11:15 AM
To: WSJTX@groups.io
Subject: Re: [WSJTX] frequencies for 160 - 6m?

N0AN,

The Official Observer Program used to do an adequate job of informing Amateurs of proper Band usage. Where are they these days?

As I said before, FT8 uses 8-FSK Modulation with 6.25 Hz spacing. It is
not one discreet tone. Therefore, it would be impossible
to ONLY use one tone at 1500 Hz to exchange information
using FT8 on 60M or any other Band.

GL/73, Bob K8BL/5









On Thursday, February 20, 2020, 03:55:49 AM CST, Hasan Schiers N0AN <hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:





Bob,
Of course you are seeing them all over the place, and that is exactly what we are being warned about. I used to approach things exactly as you have and was subsequently told that these "convenient" self-interpretations are going to result in notice of violations when the new monitoring program starts.

I will look for the precise wording I was sent a few weeks ago, and anyone who wants to can argue it out with the ARRL Keep in mind that the Monitoring program will be run by the ARRL, and they will be sending out notices and making referrals to the FCC for enforcement.

73, N0AN

Hasan

On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 10:09 PM K8BL BOB LIDDY <k8bl@...> wrote:
FT8 uses 8-FSK Modulation with 6.25 Hz spacing. It is not one discreet
tone. Therefore, it would be impossible to ONLY use one tone at 1500
Hz to exchange information using FT8 on 60M or any other Band.

I'm seeing plenty of QSOs on 60M tonight from all across NA and EU. My
10W to an end-fed LW at 20Ft works out quite well.

GL/73, Bob K8BL

On Wednesday, February 19, 2020, 09:14:13 PM CST, Herb Blue <wb8asi@...> wrote:

I will practice my whistle to stay on 1500.

On February 19, 2020 at 10:04 PM Hasan Schiers N0AN <hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:


According to the precise definition in the rules the entire 2800 Hz spectrum is NOT AVAILABLE!



Only one frequency is permitted and that is 1500 Hz. No moving around, no spreading out, period. Applies only to USA stations.




That is exactly what I was warned about. The rule is clear and it is
equally clear it was not being enforced. It is going to be enforced, that is what I was told.




Take it for what it's worth, I have no investment either way.




73, N0AN



Hasan





On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 6:39 PM Bruce N7XGR < n7xgr1@...> wrote:




Then what we all need to do is start doing this,


http://www.openculture.com/2013/03/speaking_in_whistles_the_whistled_
language_of_oaxaca_mexico.html

These people communicate by whistling tones that is understood by the receiver.

This seems to be the same as the FT8 tones. What is the difference between a whistled tone and a FT8 tone?

We can whistle tones anywhere in the 2800 Hz USB transmit bandwidth.

What about other countries? Will the FCC enforce this to countries outside of the US boarder?




Bruce N7XGR





On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 7:09 PM Hasan Schiers N0AN < hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:



Re: 60m



Be very careful about 60m in the USA. The spread of FT8 activity away from 1500 Hz may well be in violation of FCC rules. I received a warning that enforcement of this rule was going to start shortly with the onset of the new ARRL Monitoring program, wherein violations will be forwarded to the FCcCfor enforcement.




I'd be careful.

73, N0AN


Hasan

On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 4:26 PM K8BL BOB LIDDY < k8bl@...> wrote:


As long as we're discussing the Frequency List, I noticed that
doing the Reset does not provide the 60M Frequency for FT8.

I've inserted 5.357 MHz in my List. There is a fair bit of
activity there and many DX Stations to work nightly. It's easy to find a clear spot.

73, Bob K8BL





Hasan Schiers N0AN
 

Bob,


The OO program is being reconstituted into what the ARRL and FCC have agreed upon..(Volunteer Monitoring) I have no idea what they (the OOs)  had been doing prior to this agreement they seem invisible.

Look at page 73 of this month's QST. Specifically, last two paragraphs. This is what is replacing the OO program.

Read the other thread where I provided the citations from the ARRL, which is the body that is goinng to be issuing referrals to the FCC for misconduct.

I'm not saying anything other than what the ARRL has published. They are going to be providing the proof of misconduct to the FCC.

Now if we know what the ARRL's position is w/r to single frequency operation of FT8/Digital on 60m (1500 Hz) and what does and does not consist  of misconduct,  and we further know they are going to be in charge of gathering evidence for referral to the FCC, it would pay us to heed the warning.

From the ARRL:
"These are channel-center frequencies, not the ones you tune your radio to. The NTIA told the FCC that hams "must assure that their signal is transmitted on the channel-center frequency." This means the amateur signal must be centered within the 2.8-kHz-wide channel. The FCC has provided scant guidance beyond suggesting--in a footnote that follows the NTIA's advice--that amateurs tune 1.5 kHz below the center-channel frequencies to be "on channel." Amateurs need to be sure that the tuning display readout reflects transmitted (ie, carrier) frequency (most do). Consult your transceiver's manual if you're not sure."

(My underline, my bold)

They specifically state 1.5 kHz below the center channel frequencies, which puts us on 5357 USB 1500 Hz.  not 1700 Hz, not 700 Hz, not 1350 Hz

http://www.arrl.org/60m-channel-allocation
"Operating at strict channel-center frequencies may come as a disappointment to many, but cooperating with the NTIA is key to expanded privileges in the future.
The channel center frequencies are":..snipped

...and for further clarity of what "channel-center frequencies" means:
The FCC has provided scant guidance beyond suggesting--in a footnote that follows the NTIA's advice--that amateurs tune 1.5 kHz below the center-channel frequencies to be "on channel."

The immediate above is the linchpin of the interpretive guidance. Read it VERY carefully. On channel means on frequency, not 1500 Hz, plus or minus whatever I want. It means and CLEARLY says, 1.5 kHz is on channel....everything else is ...well....off channel and violating the rules.

Now you can cite CFRs all you like, the interpretive guidance is quite clear...and it is being ignored on 60m by US Licensed Amateurs. My only purpose in posting any of this was to be careful about 60 meters. Things are about to change and we have  been doing with impunity looks like it is about to change.

The people doing the new monitoring, the NTIA and the FCC are all on the same page with this. I'd love to see it change. The rules seem unreasonable and at times unfathomable.

All I've said all along is to be careful on 60m.

No one reading all this information can come to the conclusion that it's safe to transmit all over the 60m segment where digital is channelized (5357, 1500 Hz USB), on anywhere other than 1500 Hz, unless the rules and/or the interpretive guidance change. There is no band. There is no spectrum. There is a single assigned frequency for digital, period. Operating FT8 on 60m anywhere other than 5357 USB , 1500 Hz is clearly against the existing rules and interpretive guidelines.

I don't like it. It seems unreasonable. In fact, it seems downright un-doable. But, that's the government for ya. It would be nice if ARRL got off their duff and lobbied for some reasonable rules or at least provided the rationale for why this appears so ridiculously restrictive.

I've provided all the info that I can about this. I'm done. Do what ya like, won't bother me one way or the other. Just don't whine if citations follow.

73, N0AN


On Thu, Feb 20, 2020, 10:14 AM K8BL BOB LIDDY <k8bl@...> wrote:
N0AN,

The Official Observer Program used to do an adequate job of informing
Amateurs of proper Band usage. Where are they these days?

As I said before, FT8 uses 8-FSK Modulation with 6.25 Hz spacing. It is
 not one discreet tone. Therefore, it would be impossible
 to ONLY use one tone at 1500 Hz to exchange information
 using FT8 on 60M or any other Band. 

GL/73,       Bob  K8BL/5









On Thursday, February 20, 2020, 03:55:49 AM CST, Hasan Schiers N0AN <hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:





Bob, 
Of course you are seeing them all over the place, and that is exactly what we are being warned about. I used to approach things exactly as you have and was subsequently told that these  "convenient" self-interpretations are going to result in notice of violations when the new monitoring program starts.

I will look for the precise wording I was sent a few weeks ago, and anyone who wants to can argue it out with the ARRL  Keep in mind  that the Monitoring program will be run by the ARRL, and they will be sending out notices and making referrals to the FCC for enforcement. 

73, N0AN

Hasan

On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 10:09 PM K8BL BOB LIDDY <k8bl@...> wrote:
> FT8 uses 8-FSK Modulation with 6.25 Hz spacing. It is
> not one discreet tone. Therefore, it would be impossible
> to ONLY use one tone at 1500 Hz to exchange information
> using FT8 on 60M or any other Band.
>
> I'm seeing plenty of QSOs on 60M tonight from all across
> NA and EU. My 10W to an end-fed LW at 20Ft works out
> quite well.
>
> GL/73,   Bob  K8BL
>
> On Wednesday, February 19, 2020, 09:14:13 PM CST, Herb Blue <wb8asi@...> wrote:
>
> I will practice my whistle to stay on 1500. 
>
>>  On February 19, 2020 at 10:04 PM Hasan Schiers N0AN <hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>>  According to the precise definition in the rules the entire 2800 Hz spectrum is NOT AVAILABLE!
>>  
>>
>>
>>  Only one frequency is permitted and that is 1500 Hz. No moving around, no spreading out, period. Applies only to USA stations.
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>>  That is exactly what I was warned about. The rule is clear and it is equally clear it was not being enforced. It is going to be enforced, that is what I was told. 
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>>  Take it for what it's worth,  I have no investment either way.
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>>  73, N0AN 
>>
>>  
>>
>>  Hasan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  
>>  On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 6:39 PM Bruce N7XGR < n7xgr1@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  Then what we all need to do is start doing this,
>>>
>>>  http://www.openculture.com/2013/03/speaking_in_whistles_the_whistled_language_of_oaxaca_mexico.html
>>>
>>>  These people communicate by whistling tones that is understood by the receiver.
>>>
>>>  This seems to be the same as the FT8 tones.  What is the difference between a whistled tone and a FT8 tone?
>>>
>>>  We can whistle tones anywhere in the 2800 Hz USB transmit bandwidth.
>>>
>>>  What about other countries?  Will the FCC enforce this to countries outside of the US boarder?
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>
>>>  Bruce  N7XGR
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>  On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 7:09 PM Hasan Schiers N0AN < hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>  
>>>>  Re: 60m
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Be very careful about 60m in the USA. The spread of FT8 activity away from 1500 Hz may well be in violation of FCC rules. I received a warning that enforcement of this rule was going to start shortly with the onset of the new ARRL Monitoring program, wherein violations will be forwarded to the FCcCfor enforcement.
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  I'd be careful.
>>>>
>>>>  73, N0AN
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Hasan
>
>>>>  
>>>>  On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 4:26 PM K8BL BOB LIDDY < k8bl@...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>  As long as we're discussing the Frequency List, I noticed that doing
>>>>> the Reset does not provide the 60M Frequency for FT8.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've inserted 5.357 MHz in my List. There is a fair bit of activity there
>>>>> and many DX Stations to work nightly. It's easy to find a clear spot.
>>>>>
>>>>> 73,    Bob  K8BL
>  
>
>
>  
>
>



Frank Donovan
 

The "Government" will be QRV on 5330.5 kHz operating simplex
during the 2020 Armed Forces Day Crossband Test

NSS will be operated by the Naval Academy Radio Club and the
Potomac Valley Radio Club simultaneously on 80, 60, 40, 30, 20 and
17 meter CW and SSB from 1300Z Saturday May 9 to 0459Z Sunday
May 10.

Sorry, no digital activity is planned...

73
Frank
W3LPL


From: "Bob Lewis" <aa4pb@...>
To: WSJTX@groups.io
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2020 5:06:19 PM
Subject: Re: [WSJTX] frequencies for 160 - 6m?

The signal is not limited to one tone (SSB is certainly more than one tone). The requirement is that whatever bandwidth the signal occupies MUST be centered on the assigned channel. That is standard government and military operating practice which was originally intended for the use of voice, CW, and RTTY signals. Personally, it doesn't make a lot of common sense for narrow modes like FT8 but the government doesn't seem to want to give on the issue. However, one point perhaps is that if they permit the channel to be filled with many individual signals from individual stations spread out over the channel then then the government has a much bigger problem trying to clear the channel for their use.

-----Original Message-----
From: WSJTX@groups.io [mailto:WSJTX@groups.io] On Behalf Of K8BL BOB LIDDY
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2020 11:15 AM
To: WSJTX@groups.io
Subject: Re: [WSJTX] frequencies for 160 - 6m?

N0AN,

The Official Observer Program used to do an adequate job of informing Amateurs of proper Band usage. Where are they these days?

As I said before, FT8 uses 8-FSK Modulation with 6.25 Hz spacing. It is
 not one discreet tone. Therefore, it would be impossible
 to ONLY use one tone at 1500 Hz to exchange information
 using FT8 on 60M or any other Band.

GL/73,       Bob  K8BL/5









On Thursday, February 20, 2020, 03:55:49 AM CST, Hasan Schiers N0AN <hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:





Bob,
Of course you are seeing them all over the place, and that is exactly what we are being warned about. I used to approach things exactly as you have and was subsequently told that these  "convenient" self-interpretations are going to result in notice of violations when the new monitoring program starts.

I will look for the precise wording I was sent a few weeks ago, and anyone who wants to can argue it out with the ARRL  Keep in mind  that the Monitoring program will be run by the ARRL, and they will be sending out notices and making referrals to the FCC for enforcement.

73, N0AN

Hasan

On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 10:09 PM K8BL BOB LIDDY <k8bl@...> wrote:
> FT8 uses 8-FSK Modulation with 6.25 Hz spacing. It is not one discreet
> tone. Therefore, it would be impossible to ONLY use one tone at 1500
> Hz to exchange information using FT8 on 60M or any other Band.
>
> I'm seeing plenty of QSOs on 60M tonight from all across NA and EU. My
> 10W to an end-fed LW at 20Ft works out quite well.
>
> GL/73,   Bob  K8BL
>
> On Wednesday, February 19, 2020, 09:14:13 PM CST, Herb Blue <wb8asi@...> wrote:
>
> I will practice my whistle to stay on 1500.
>
>>  On February 19, 2020 at 10:04 PM Hasan Schiers N0AN <hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>>  According to the precise definition in the rules the entire 2800 Hz spectrum is NOT AVAILABLE!
>>  
>>
>>
>>  Only one frequency is permitted and that is 1500 Hz. No moving around, no spreading out, period. Applies only to USA stations.
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>>  That is exactly what I was warned about. The rule is clear and it is
>>equally clear it was not being enforced. It is going to be enforced, that is what I was told.
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>>  Take it for what it's worth,  I have no investment either way.
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>>  73, N0AN
>>
>>  
>>
>>  Hasan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  
>>  On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 6:39 PM Bruce N7XGR < n7xgr1@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  Then what we all need to do is start doing this,
>>>
>>>  
>>>http://www.openculture.com/2013/03/speaking_in_whistles_the_whistled_
>>>language_of_oaxaca_mexico.html
>>>
>>>  These people communicate by whistling tones that is understood by the receiver.
>>>
>>>  This seems to be the same as the FT8 tones.  What is the difference between a whistled tone and a FT8 tone?
>>>
>>>  We can whistle tones anywhere in the 2800 Hz USB transmit bandwidth.
>>>
>>>  What about other countries?  Will the FCC enforce this to countries outside of the US boarder?
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>
>>>  Bruce  N7XGR
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>  On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 7:09 PM Hasan Schiers N0AN < hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>  
>>>>  Re: 60m
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Be very careful about 60m in the USA. The spread of FT8 activity away from 1500 Hz may well be in violation of FCC rules. I received a warning that enforcement of this rule was going to start shortly with the onset of the new ARRL Monitoring program, wherein violations will be forwarded to the FCcCfor enforcement.
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  I'd be careful.
>>>>
>>>>  73, N0AN
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Hasan
>
>>>>  
>>>>  On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 4:26 PM K8BL BOB LIDDY < k8bl@...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>  As long as we're discussing the Frequency List, I noticed that
>>>>>doing  the Reset does not provide the 60M Frequency for FT8.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've inserted 5.357 MHz in my List. There is a fair bit of
>>>>> activity there and many DX Stations to work nightly. It's easy to find a clear spot.
>>>>>
>>>>> 73,    Bob  K8BL
>  
>
>
>  
>
>






Frank Donovan
 

The "Government" will be QRV on 5330.5 kHz operating simplex
during the 2020 Armed Forces Day Crossband Test

NSS will be operated by the Naval Academy Radio Club and the
Potomac Valley Radio Club simultaneously on 80, 60, 40, 30, 20 and
17 meter CW and SSB from 1300Z Saturday May 9 to 0459Z Sunday
May 10.

Sorry, no digital activity is planned...

73
Frank
W3LPL


From: "Bob Lewis" <aa4pb@...>
To: WSJTX@groups.io
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2020 5:06:19 PM
Subject: Re: [WSJTX] frequencies for 160 - 6m?

The signal is not limited to one tone (SSB is certainly more than one tone). The requirement is that whatever bandwidth the signal occupies MUST be centered on the assigned channel. That is standard government and military operating practice which was originally intended for the use of voice, CW, and RTTY signals. Personally, it doesn't make a lot of common sense for narrow modes like FT8 but the government doesn't seem to want to give on the issue. However, one point perhaps is that if they permit the channel to be filled with many individual signals from individual stations spread out over the channel then then the government has a much bigger problem trying to clear the channel for their use.

-----Original Message-----
From: WSJTX@groups.io [mailto:WSJTX@groups.io] On Behalf Of K8BL BOB LIDDY
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2020 11:15 AM
To: WSJTX@groups.io
Subject: Re: [WSJTX] frequencies for 160 - 6m?

N0AN,

The Official Observer Program used to do an adequate job of informing Amateurs of proper Band usage. Where are they these days?

As I said before, FT8 uses 8-FSK Modulation with 6.25 Hz spacing. It is
 not one discreet tone. Therefore, it would be impossible
 to ONLY use one tone at 1500 Hz to exchange information
 using FT8 on 60M or any other Band.

GL/73,       Bob  K8BL/5









On Thursday, February 20, 2020, 03:55:49 AM CST, Hasan Schiers N0AN <hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:





Bob,
Of course you are seeing them all over the place, and that is exactly what we are being warned about. I used to approach things exactly as you have and was subsequently told that these  "convenient" self-interpretations are going to result in notice of violations when the new monitoring program starts.

I will look for the precise wording I was sent a few weeks ago, and anyone who wants to can argue it out with the ARRL  Keep in mind  that the Monitoring program will be run by the ARRL, and they will be sending out notices and making referrals to the FCC for enforcement.

73, N0AN

Hasan

On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 10:09 PM K8BL BOB LIDDY <k8bl@...> wrote:
> FT8 uses 8-FSK Modulation with 6.25 Hz spacing. It is not one discreet
> tone. Therefore, it would be impossible to ONLY use one tone at 1500
> Hz to exchange information using FT8 on 60M or any other Band.
>
> I'm seeing plenty of QSOs on 60M tonight from all across NA and EU. My
> 10W to an end-fed LW at 20Ft works out quite well.
>
> GL/73,   Bob  K8BL
>
> On Wednesday, February 19, 2020, 09:14:13 PM CST, Herb Blue <wb8asi@...> wrote:
>
> I will practice my whistle to stay on 1500.
>
>>  On February 19, 2020 at 10:04 PM Hasan Schiers N0AN <hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>>  According to the precise definition in the rules the entire 2800 Hz spectrum is NOT AVAILABLE!
>>  
>>
>>
>>  Only one frequency is permitted and that is 1500 Hz. No moving around, no spreading out, period. Applies only to USA stations.
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>>  That is exactly what I was warned about. The rule is clear and it is
>>equally clear it was not being enforced. It is going to be enforced, that is what I was told.
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>>  Take it for what it's worth,  I have no investment either way.
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>>  73, N0AN
>>
>>  
>>
>>  Hasan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  
>>  On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 6:39 PM Bruce N7XGR < n7xgr1@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  Then what we all need to do is start doing this,
>>>
>>>  
>>>http://www.openculture.com/2013/03/speaking_in_whistles_the_whistled_
>>>language_of_oaxaca_mexico.html
>>>
>>>  These people communicate by whistling tones that is understood by the receiver.
>>>
>>>  This seems to be the same as the FT8 tones.  What is the difference between a whistled tone and a FT8 tone?
>>>
>>>  We can whistle tones anywhere in the 2800 Hz USB transmit bandwidth.
>>>
>>>  What about other countries?  Will the FCC enforce this to countries outside of the US boarder?
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>
>>>  Bruce  N7XGR
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>  On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 7:09 PM Hasan Schiers N0AN < hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>  
>>>>  Re: 60m
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Be very careful about 60m in the USA. The spread of FT8 activity away from 1500 Hz may well be in violation of FCC rules. I received a warning that enforcement of this rule was going to start shortly with the onset of the new ARRL Monitoring program, wherein violations will be forwarded to the FCcCfor enforcement.
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  I'd be careful.
>>>>
>>>>  73, N0AN
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Hasan
>
>>>>  
>>>>  On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 4:26 PM K8BL BOB LIDDY < k8bl@...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>  As long as we're discussing the Frequency List, I noticed that
>>>>>doing  the Reset does not provide the 60M Frequency for FT8.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've inserted 5.357 MHz in my List. There is a fair bit of
>>>>> activity there and many DX Stations to work nightly. It's easy to find a clear spot.
>>>>>
>>>>> 73,    Bob  K8BL
>  
>
>
>  
>
>






Hasan Schiers N0AN
 

Bob, I was referring to 60m Digital only, not SSB...which was part of my logic when I took issue with this highly restrictive interpretive guidance. Doesn't matter.

You stated the case perfectly:

"Personally, it doesn't make a lot of common sense for narrow modes like FT8 but the government doesn't seem to want to give on the issue. However, one point perhaps is that if they permit the channel to be filled with many individual signals from individual stations spread out over the channel then then the government has a much bigger problem trying to clear the channel for their use. "

I'm guessing this must be the rationale, but it sure would be nice to have it explicitly stated like that....somewhere!

All that aside, you appear to agree what the rule actually says is 1500 Hz on digital, period. Which is what I was told they were going to start enforcing, hence my statement,  "be careful on 60m"

73, N0AN
Hasan


On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 11:06 AM Bob Lewis <aa4pb@...> wrote:
The signal is not limited to one tone (SSB is certainly more than one tone). The requirement is that whatever bandwidth the signal occupies MUST be centered on the assigned channel. That is standard government and military operating practice which was originally intended for the use of voice, CW, and RTTY signals. Personally, it doesn't make a lot of common sense for narrow modes like FT8 but the government doesn't seem to want to give on the issue. However, one point perhaps is that if they permit the channel to be filled with many individual signals from individual stations spread out over the channel then then the government has a much bigger problem trying to clear the channel for their use.

-----Original Message-----
From: WSJTX@groups.io [mailto:WSJTX@groups.io] On Behalf Of K8BL BOB LIDDY
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2020 11:15 AM
To: WSJTX@groups.io
Subject: Re: [WSJTX] frequencies for 160 - 6m?

N0AN,

The Official Observer Program used to do an adequate job of informing Amateurs of proper Band usage. Where are they these days?

As I said before, FT8 uses 8-FSK Modulation with 6.25 Hz spacing. It is
 not one discreet tone. Therefore, it would be impossible
 to ONLY use one tone at 1500 Hz to exchange information
 using FT8 on 60M or any other Band.

GL/73,       Bob  K8BL/5









On Thursday, February 20, 2020, 03:55:49 AM CST, Hasan Schiers N0AN <hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:





Bob,
Of course you are seeing them all over the place, and that is exactly what we are being warned about. I used to approach things exactly as you have and was subsequently told that these  "convenient" self-interpretations are going to result in notice of violations when the new monitoring program starts.

I will look for the precise wording I was sent a few weeks ago, and anyone who wants to can argue it out with the ARRL  Keep in mind  that the Monitoring program will be run by the ARRL, and they will be sending out notices and making referrals to the FCC for enforcement.

73, N0AN

Hasan

On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 10:09 PM K8BL BOB LIDDY <k8bl@...> wrote:
> FT8 uses 8-FSK Modulation with 6.25 Hz spacing. It is not one discreet
> tone. Therefore, it would be impossible to ONLY use one tone at 1500
> Hz to exchange information using FT8 on 60M or any other Band.
>
> I'm seeing plenty of QSOs on 60M tonight from all across NA and EU. My
> 10W to an end-fed LW at 20Ft works out quite well.
>
> GL/73,   Bob  K8BL
>
> On Wednesday, February 19, 2020, 09:14:13 PM CST, Herb Blue <wb8asi@...> wrote:
>
> I will practice my whistle to stay on 1500.
>
>>  On February 19, 2020 at 10:04 PM Hasan Schiers N0AN <hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>>  According to the precise definition in the rules the entire 2800 Hz spectrum is NOT AVAILABLE!
>> 
>>
>>
>>  Only one frequency is permitted and that is 1500 Hz. No moving around, no spreading out, period. Applies only to USA stations.
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>>  That is exactly what I was warned about. The rule is clear and it is
>>equally clear it was not being enforced. It is going to be enforced, that is what I was told.
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>>  Take it for what it's worth,  I have no investment either way.
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>>  73, N0AN
>>
>> 
>>
>>  Hasan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>>  On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 6:39 PM Bruce N7XGR < n7xgr1@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  Then what we all need to do is start doing this,
>>>
>>> 
>>>http://www.openculture.com/2013/03/speaking_in_whistles_the_whistled_
>>>language_of_oaxaca_mexico.html
>>>
>>>  These people communicate by whistling tones that is understood by the receiver.
>>>
>>>  This seems to be the same as the FT8 tones.  What is the difference between a whistled tone and a FT8 tone?
>>>
>>>  We can whistle tones anywhere in the 2800 Hz USB transmit bandwidth.
>>>
>>>  What about other countries?  Will the FCC enforce this to countries outside of the US boarder?
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>
>>>  Bruce  N7XGR
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>>  On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 7:09 PM Hasan Schiers N0AN < hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> 
>>>>  Re: 60m
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Be very careful about 60m in the USA. The spread of FT8 activity away from 1500 Hz may well be in violation of FCC rules. I received a warning that enforcement of this rule was going to start shortly with the onset of the new ARRL Monitoring program, wherein violations will be forwarded to the FCcCfor enforcement.
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  I'd be careful.
>>>>
>>>>  73, N0AN
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Hasan
>
>>>> 
>>>>  On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 4:26 PM K8BL BOB LIDDY < k8bl@...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>  As long as we're discussing the Frequency List, I noticed that
>>>>>doing  the Reset does not provide the 60M Frequency for FT8.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've inserted 5.357 MHz in my List. There is a fair bit of
>>>>> activity there and many DX Stations to work nightly. It's easy to find a clear spot.
>>>>>
>>>>> 73,    Bob  K8BL

>
>
>   
>
>




Joe
 

The ARRL began a new program in January called the ARRL Volunteer Program that will supplant the OO Program.  See March 2020 QST, page 73.

On 2/20/2020 11:14 AM, K8BL BOB LIDDY wrote:
N0AN,

The Official Observer Program used to do an adequate job of informing
Amateurs of proper Band usage. Where are they these days?


Dave_G0WBX
 

Re:-

From the ARRL:  (Via N0AN)

"These are channel-center frequencies, not the ones you tune your radio to. The NTIA told the FCC that hams "must assure that their signal is transmitted on the channel-center frequency." This means the amateur signal must be centered within the 2.8-kHz-wide channel. The FCC has provided scant guidance beyond suggesting--in a footnote that follows the NTIA's advice--that amateurs tune 1.5 kHz below the center-channel frequencies to be "on channel." Amateurs need to be sure that the tuning display readout reflects transmitted (ie, carrier) frequency (most do). Consult your transceiver's manual if you're not sure."

(my underline, & bold)


What's needed then, for your side of the pond, is a just under 2.8kHz wide, TDM system perhaps.  Keeping to the "only one may transmit at a time".  But (AFIK) no specification as to how short or fast the "transmissions" should be.

Just musing alongside the box.  Goodness knows how you'd co'ordinate something like that using Ham level technology, considering the trouble many have keeping Winderz PC's in time.

73.

Dave G0WBX.


-- 
Created on and sent from a Unix like PC running and using free and open source software:


Martin G0HDB
 

On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 04:22 PM, K8BL BOB LIDDY wrote:
Bruce,

Well done! Your research and explanation makes perfect
sense when one understands exactly how FT8 works.

I'll plan to stay above 1500 Hz on FT8 with my VFO set
at 5.357 MHz in the future.
I have to confess to being more than somewhat bemused by all the kerfuffle that seems to be afflicting USA amateurs' use of FT8 on 60m, but it does appear that you're having to comply with some extremely restrictive (and in some cases seemingly unenforceable) rules that fortunately don't seem to have made their way across the Atlantic (yet).

With regard to complying with the rule that says that all digital signals must be centred within the channel at 5358.5kHz, doesn't this mean that in order to allow for the 50Hz bandwidth of an FT8 signal the Tx offset should be set to 1475Hz above a dial frequency of 5357.0kHz rather than 1500Hz?  If the 50Hz-wide FT8 signal starts at 1500Hz above 5357.0kHz then it won't be correctly centred within the channel.

I was operating on 60m late last night, in USB mode and with a dial frequency of 5357.0kHz, and at one point saw half a dozen or so signals from USA stations spread widely across my 2.5kHz-wide waterfall that's centred on 1500Hz so most if not all of them were non-compliant with the centre-of-channel rule.  I hope nothing nasty happens to them...

--
Martin G0HDB