Date   

Re: FT8 receive/transmit imbalance #FT8

Jim - N4ST
 

I also see large differences in the TX/RX signal reports on FT8.

Typically, I am 10db lower on their end and 15db is not unusual.

I am running 50W on HF with dipoles but I doubt that most people are running +500W.

Oddly, the differences are much more even when I use FT4 and if anything, my sigs are often reported better than theirs.

__________

73,

Jim – N4ST

 

 

From: main@WSJTX.groups.io <main@WSJTX.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ron / W4MMP via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2021 12:36
To: main@WSJTX.groups.io
Subject: Re: [WSJTX] FT8 receive/transmit imbalance #FT8

 

Hello John,

I also have a similar experience.   The direction of propagation (east/west) does not seem to matter very much in my case.  Most of the time there is quite a large asymmetry between sent and received signal levels.   If the received signal is -10 or less I generally don't try due to my observed delta which is about 15 to 20db.  For a -10 received signal my signal is most likely ~-25 at the other end. 

There are a number of conditions I need to examine with my station.

On the up side of things:
1) Virtually noise free operating conditions.  My location has almost no man made noise.  Only low level atmospheric noise.
2) Very sensitive receiver in transceiver.
3) Excellent DSP engine in the transceiver.
The above may lead to better than average receive numbers.

On the down side:
1) 300 feet of coax between the shack and the antenna farm.  I need to determine the real loss presented by the cable.
2) Fan dipole (30/20/17/15M) at a height of 40 feet.  (radiation pattern east/west (hopefully 😉)
3) Transceiver output power 85W (may that is not a down side, but my guess is at least a few stations are running a lot more than that).

The first thing I really need to check is the real power loss presented by the coax and go from there.

73,
Ron / W4MMP

On 7/14/2021 11:48, Willi Passmann wrote:

John,

from my experience, massive asymmetry between reports given / received are quite normal. Sometimes propagation to western locations seems to be favoured, so I get good reports from the US, while I barely can receive these signals. At the same time I hear a lot of signals from the east, from JA/YB in particular, but they do not get my transmissions.
I could observe favoured propagation to eastern locations, too.

I cannot explain this kind of propagation, even less I am able to predict them. But they exist.

Beside these changing propagation effects there is another fact to be considered: The highest noise levels can be expected in cities within tropical countries that use overhead lines for power supply. When it is raining, faulty isolators can cause extreme noise levels.

vy 73,
Willi, DJ6JZ


Am 14.07.2021 um 16:13 schrieb John Nelson:

#FT8 Like other group members I very often experience massive asymmetry between the reports I give and those I receive. I can run the UK legal limit into a TH7DX and the path from here happens to be very good to JA and YB. On 14 and 21MHz it's very easy to generate a pile-up of JAs in particular. Commonly they're in the range between say 0 and +10 and occasionally more. But the reports I get are usually more like -10 to -20. A typical example just now was working JA3CQM, giving him +12 and receiving -15.

And quite often they clearly aren't copying me at all. I can end up sending JA1XXX GW4FRX +06 for seven or eignt passes, without any response. Most frustrating. 

Either there are JA stations running many tens of kilowatts or JA and YB are electrically very noisy countries! 

Overall I seldom call anyone who's weaker than about -12 because from experience it's odds-on they won't hear me.

 


Re: FT8 receive/transmit imbalance #FT8

Ron / W4MMP
 

Hello John,

I also have a similar experience.   The direction of propagation (east/west) does not seem to matter very much in my case.  Most of the time there is quite a large asymmetry between sent and received signal levels.   If the received signal is -10 or less I generally don't try due to my observed delta which is about 15 to 20db.  For a -10 received signal my signal is most likely ~-25 at the other end. 

There are a number of conditions I need to examine with my station.

On the up side of things:
1) Virtually noise free operating conditions.  My location has almost no man made noise.  Only low level atmospheric noise.
2) Very sensitive receiver in transceiver.
3) Excellent DSP engine in the transceiver.
The above may lead to better than average receive numbers.

On the down side:
1) 300 feet of coax between the shack and the antenna farm.  I need to determine the real loss presented by the cable.
2) Fan dipole (30/20/17/15M) at a height of 40 feet.  (radiation pattern east/west (hopefully 😉)
3) Transceiver output power 85W (may that is not a down side, but my guess is at least a few stations are running a lot more than that).

The first thing I really need to check is the real power loss presented by the coax and go from there.

73,
Ron / W4MMP
On 7/14/2021 11:48, Willi Passmann wrote:

John,

from my experience, massive asymmetry between reports given / received are quite normal. Sometimes propagation to western locations seems to be favoured, so I get good reports from the US, while I barely can receive these signals. At the same time I hear a lot of signals from the east, from JA/YB in particular, but they do not get my transmissions.
I could observe favoured propagation to eastern locations, too.

I cannot explain this kind of propagation, even less I am able to predict them. But they exist.

Beside these changing propagation effects there is another fact to be considered: The highest noise levels can be expected in cities within tropical countries that use overhead lines for power supply. When it is raining, faulty isolators can cause extreme noise levels.

vy 73,
Willi, DJ6JZ


Am 14.07.2021 um 16:13 schrieb John Nelson:
#FT8 Like other group members I very often experience massive asymmetry between the reports I give and those I receive. I can run the UK legal limit into a TH7DX and the path from here happens to be very good to JA and YB. On 14 and 21MHz it's very easy to generate a pile-up of JAs in particular. Commonly they're in the range between say 0 and +10 and occasionally more. But the reports I get are usually more like -10 to -20. A typical example just now was working JA3CQM, giving him +12 and receiving -15.

And quite often they clearly aren't copying me at all. I can end up sending JA1XXX GW4FRX +06 for seven or eignt passes, without any response. Most frustrating. 

Either there are JA stations running many tens of kilowatts or JA and YB are electrically very noisy countries! 

Overall I seldom call anyone who's weaker than about -12 because from experience it's odds-on they won't hear me.



Re: FT8 receive/transmit imbalance #FT8

Willi Passmann
 

John,

from my experience, massive asymmetry between reports given / received are quite normal. Sometimes propagation to western locations seems to be favoured, so I get good reports from the US, while I barely can receive these signals. At the same time I hear a lot of signals from the east, from JA/YB in particular, but they do not get my transmissions.
I could observe favoured propagation to eastern locations, too.

I cannot explain this kind of propagation, even less I am able to predict them. But they exist.

Beside these changing propagation effects there is another fact to be considered: The highest noise levels can be expected in cities within tropical countries that use overhead lines for power supply. When it is raining, faulty isolators can cause extreme noise levels.

vy 73,
Willi, DJ6JZ


Am 14.07.2021 um 16:13 schrieb John Nelson:

#FT8 Like other group members I very often experience massive asymmetry between the reports I give and those I receive. I can run the UK legal limit into a TH7DX and the path from here happens to be very good to JA and YB. On 14 and 21MHz it's very easy to generate a pile-up of JAs in particular. Commonly they're in the range between say 0 and +10 and occasionally more. But the reports I get are usually more like -10 to -20. A typical example just now was working JA3CQM, giving him +12 and receiving -15.

And quite often they clearly aren't copying me at all. I can end up sending JA1XXX GW4FRX +06 for seven or eignt passes, without any response. Most frustrating. 

Either there are JA stations running many tens of kilowatts or JA and YB are electrically very noisy countries! 

Overall I seldom call anyone who's weaker than about -12 because from experience it's odds-on they won't hear me.





Re: Resend Allow TX frequency change ...

Bill Somerville
 

On 14/07/2021 15:30, rogich via groups.io wrote:
I still see this issue on 2.3.0. Ever fixed ?
OM,

v2.3.0 is no longer supported, the current release is v2.4.0, or v2.5.0 RC3 if you use the MAP65 application or the Q65 mode and want he latest that will be in the next release.

73
Bill
G4WJS.


Re: Resend Allow TX frequency change ...

rogich@...
 

I still see this issue on 2.3.0. Ever fixed ? 


FT8 receive/transmit imbalance #FT8

John Nelson
 

#FT8 Like other group members I very often experience massive asymmetry between the reports I give and those I receive. I can run the UK legal limit into a TH7DX and the path from here happens to be very good to JA and YB. On 14 and 21MHz it's very easy to generate a pile-up of JAs in particular. Commonly they're in the range between say 0 and +10 and occasionally more. But the reports I get are usually more like -10 to -20. A typical example just now was working JA3CQM, giving him +12 and receiving -15.

And quite often they clearly aren't copying me at all. I can end up sending JA1XXX GW4FRX +06 for seven or eignt passes, without any response. Most frustrating. 

Either there are JA stations running many tens of kilowatts or JA and YB are electrically very noisy countries! 

Overall I seldom call anyone who's weaker than about -12 because from experience it's odds-on they won't hear me.


Re: Rig Control Error v2.4.0 #NewUser #WSJTX_config

Bruce N7XGR
 

Mike,  Because the FT891 does not have an audio CODEC IC inside.
It has only a CAT IC chip for rig control and firmware updates.
So an external interface is needed for the audio I/O connected to
the DATA jack on the back.

Bruce  N7XGR


On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 8:30 AM Michael Black via groups.io <mdblack98=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Why are you using a SignaLink?   All you need it is a standard USB cable (what's typically called a printer cable) to have both audio and CAT control.

Like this:

Mike W9MDB




On Wednesday, July 14, 2021, 05:24:21 AM CDT, Martin G0HDB <marting0hdb@...> wrote:


On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 06:58 AM, Derek Le Vie KA7FBI wrote:
I'm trying to run v2.4.0 (c19d62).  Trying to connect to an FT-891 through a Signalink USB.  I've got all the settings matched and am getting a "Rig Control Error"
What am I missing?
The SignaLink-USB doesn't provide any facilities for CAT control of the rig (of any make/model); it's solely an audio interface.  You'll need to provide some other means for CAT controling the rig.

Even without CAT control of your FT-891 you'll be able to make QSOs if you configure WSJT-X so that the radio is set to 'None' and you also set the WSJT-X Tx frequency cursor on the waterfall (or use the Tx frequency box) to somewhere between 1500 and 2000Hz.

--
Martin G0HDB







Re: Switching between FT8 and FT4 #decode

Brian
 

Same for me during field day on v2.3.1.  I had to restart WSJT-X to get FT4 to start decoding.
I will let you fine folks test on the RCs.  I prefer to wait for the GA release.

--
regards, 
Brian
VE3IBW


Re: Rig Control Error v2.4.0 #NewUser #WSJTX_config

Michael Black
 

Why are you using a SignaLink?   All you need it is a standard USB cable (what's typically called a printer cable) to have both audio and CAT control.

Like this:

Mike W9MDB




On Wednesday, July 14, 2021, 05:24:21 AM CDT, Martin G0HDB <marting0hdb@...> wrote:


On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 06:58 AM, Derek Le Vie KA7FBI wrote:
I'm trying to run v2.4.0 (c19d62).  Trying to connect to an FT-891 through a Signalink USB.  I've got all the settings matched and am getting a "Rig Control Error"
What am I missing?
The SignaLink-USB doesn't provide any facilities for CAT control of the rig (of any make/model); it's solely an audio interface.  You'll need to provide some other means for CAT controling the rig.

Even without CAT control of your FT-891 you'll be able to make QSOs if you configure WSJT-X so that the radio is set to 'None' and you also set the WSJT-X Tx frequency cursor on the waterfall (or use the Tx frequency box) to somewhere between 1500 and 2000Hz.

--
Martin G0HDB




Re: Rig Control Error v2.4.0 #NewUser #WSJTX_config

Martin G0HDB
 

On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 06:58 AM, Derek Le Vie KA7FBI wrote:
I'm trying to run v2.4.0 (c19d62).  Trying to connect to an FT-891 through a Signalink USB.  I've got all the settings matched and am getting a "Rig Control Error"
What am I missing?
The SignaLink-USB doesn't provide any facilities for CAT control of the rig (of any make/model); it's solely an audio interface.  You'll need to provide some other means for CAT controling the rig.

Even without CAT control of your FT-891 you'll be able to make QSOs if you configure WSJT-X so that the radio is set to 'None' and you also set the WSJT-X Tx frequency cursor on the waterfall (or use the Tx frequency box) to somewhere between 1500 and 2000Hz.

--
Martin G0HDB


Re: Debugging tools #general

Bill Somerville
 

On 14/07/2021 01:45, AB2ZY wrote:
The fellows in the JTSDK group suggested asking this sort of question here.

What tool(s) are needed to debug WSJTX?  Attempting to do it from within Qt Creator isn't working for me.  Sticking message boxes in various places is not really a substitute for a symbolic debugger and single step.

Any pointers appreciated.

Al
AB2ZY
Al,

you can use the same tools and techniques as you would with any other C++/C/Fortran code compiled with the GNU GCC tools. that means using diagnostic prints to the console, maybe message boxes but they are best suited for user interaction, the gdb debugger (lldb on macOS as there the C and C++ code is compiled using Clang/Clang++), and so on. QtCreator (in a MinGW install of Qt on MS Windows) uses gdb (or lldb on macOS) so it works just the same.

73
Bill
G4WJS.


Debugging tools #general

AB2ZY
 

The fellows in the JTSDK group suggested asking this sort of question here.

What tool(s) are needed to debug WSJTX?  Attempting to do it from within Qt Creator isn't working for me.  Sticking message boxes in various places is not really a substitute for a symbolic debugger and single step.

Any pointers appreciated.

Al
AB2ZY


Re: Lost bottom two windows on master screen #Cat_RigControl

Joe Brack
 

Thank you.  Works. Now to learn everything else.  Joe


Sent from the all new AOL app for iOS

On Tuesday, July 13, 2021, 6:12 PM, Bill Somerville <g4wjs@...> wrote:

On 14/07/2021 00:58, pa12joe via groups.io wrote:

> My first dumb new bee question.  I inadvertently moved deleted or
> collapsed the two lower control windows.  Have waterfall and two send
> receive windows.
> I think i have tried everything and cant find them.


OM,

that sounds like you have SWL Mode enabled, uncheck "Menu->View->SWL
Mode" to revert to the full user interface.

73
Bill
G4WJS.






Re: Lost bottom two windows on master screen #Cat_RigControl

Bill Somerville
 

On 14/07/2021 00:58, pa12joe via groups.io wrote:
My first dumb new bee question.  I inadvertently moved deleted or collapsed the two lower control windows.  Have waterfall and two send receive windows.
I think i have tried everything and cant find them.
OM,

that sounds like you have SWL Mode enabled, uncheck "Menu->View->SWL Mode" to revert to the full user interface.

73
Bill
G4WJS.


Lost bottom two windows on master screen #Cat_RigControl

Joe Brack
 

My first dumb new bee question.  I inadvertently moved deleted or collapsed the two lower control windows.  Have waterfall and two send receive windows.
I think i have tried everything and cant find them.


Re: Rig Control Error v2.4.0 #NewUser #WSJTX_config

Derek Le Vie KA7FBI
 

Not sure what I did, but it is working...  Made 4 contacts on FT8 this afternoon.


#JT9+JT65 combined menu option

Ralph Katz
 

Please pardon me if this question has been addressed before, as I am brand new to this group.

I do not have the JT9+JT65 mode menu option in my version 2.4.0 software, but it is still listed in the current version documentation.

Is this a documentation issue, or might there be some other reason that I don't see the combined mode option on my menu?

Thanks & 73,

Ralph AA8RK
Ann Arbor, MI


Re: S/N reporting on different modes #modes #Icom

Jim Brown
 

On 7/13/2021 2:19 AM, Bill Somerville wrote:
I have noticed that stations in Venezuela on 6m, among some others, often have some difficulty copying my signals when they are quite strong with me. My conclusion is that either they are running very high power or they suffer considerable levels of local QRN, my best guess is the latter.
I run 1kW on 6M, worst case noise level is S3 on a well calibrated S-meter, best case is S1. At least half of the signal reports I receive are 10 dB or more worse than those I give, which leads me to believe that IF the other station is using WSJT-X, he's got serious RX noise.

Because FTDX has the edge over WSJT-X on the weakest signals, I've been using FTDX for FT8 this season. I find that their noise estimation algorithm is really poor -- I rarely see it give reports over 0 dB, even on the very strongest locals that WSJT-X would give +35. PSKReporter will identify which software is feeding them each spot.

73, Jim K9YC


Re: V 2.4 crashing on transmit when using rigctld as the CAT interface #wsjt-x-crashing #WSJTX_config #IssueReport

Bill Somerville
 

On 13/07/2021 19:10, marksheffield@... wrote:
The hashtag field is currently letting me enter only one hashtag otherwise I would have included #BugReport

wsjtx_2.4.0_armhf.deb running under Raspbian Buster controlling a Kenwood TS-570D.  Previous running version was 2.2.  The TS-570 requires a physical PTT, so I have been slaving that to GPIO-17 (Broadcom)

rigctl daemon kicked-off with:  rigctld -m2004 -r/dev/ttyUSB0 -s57600 -PGPIO -p17, this has been working through several multiple version

Behavior:  In Monitor mode may operate fine (this may or may not be true).  When transmit is initiated for either data or tune, no signal is generated and all CAT fails (error box comes up complaining about settings).  Program must be shut down and restarted.  

Experiments: 
  1. installed wsjtx_2.3.1_armhf.deb, behavior the same
  2. wsjtx_2.5.0-rc3_armhf.deb. same
  3. Ran wsjtx_2.4.0_armhf.deb without using rigctld daemon, ran direct CAT to TS-570.  This did not have any PTT capability so no signals were ever transmitted, but otherwise radio & program functioned (or successfully went through the motions of pretending to transmit).  

Reinstalled 2.2.2, program and radio work as before.

All installations were done with dpkg uninstall followed by deleting the config file, then installing whichever version I would be testing.
Buster OS upgrade(ed) and updated.

OM,

not sure what you mean about hashtags, you have successfully raised this topic with 5 hashtags.

"CAT fails (error box comes up complaining about settings)" is not sufficiently accurate for us to help you. Please report the full error message, including any details?

73
Bill
G4WJS.


Re: S/N reporting on different modes #modes #Icom

Hank Pfizenmayer
 

Look at Bill N6MW paper on FT8  and SNR

 https://n6mw.jimdofree.com/

Hank K7HP 

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