Date   

locked Re: Why NO RRR Option for TX4 for FT4 in WSJT-X v 2.1.2? A Little Nerve Racking

Martin G0HDB
 

I use separate configurations for FT4 and FT8 (and for a variety of other modes) rather than switching modes within a single configuration, eg. the default one. 

I've just switched from my FT8 config to my FT4 config, and in the latter I can toggle the Tx4 message between RR73 and RRR, exactly as I can in the FT8 config.  This demonstrates to my complete satisfaction that there is nothing inherent in FT4 to prevent the selection of RRR instead of RR73, as the OP wants to be able to do.

--
Martin G0HDB


locked Re: send redo

neil_zampella <neilz@...>
 

Did you get an RRR or an RR73 from the other station?     The system will continue sending it until the other station acknowledges its receipt.

Standard procedure, which is why you are there in front of the computer to decide to log it or not.

Neil, KN3ILZ

On 2/23/2020 4:42 PM, Augustine Brace wrote:

How come WSJTX keeps sending roger signal report. Is has happen at least 5 times in one QSO. How can I fix it


    


locked Re: send redo

Reino Talarmo
 

Hi Augustine,

I assume that you are using Tab 1 for automatic message sequencing. I assume you mean message Tx 3 is repeated. That happens, if WSJT-X does not receive message Tx 4 containing either RR73 or RRR. If you want to discard that QSO, simplest is just Halt Tx. You may also select any message by Next or Now buttons e.g. Tx 6 and start CQ.

73, Reino oh3mA

 

From: WSJTX@groups.io [mailto:WSJTX@groups.io] On Behalf Of Augustine Brace
Sent: 23. helmikuuta 2020 23:42
To: WSJTX@groups.io Group Moderators <WSJTX@groups.io>
Subject: [WSJTX] send redo

 

How come WSJTX keeps sending roger signal report. Is has happen at least 5 times in one QSO. How can I fix it


locked send redo

Augustine Brace <aug1021hunt@...>
 

How come WSJTX keeps sending roger signal report. Is has happen at least 5 times in one QSO. How can I fix it


locked Re: Why NO RRR Option for TX4 for FT4 in WSJT-X v 2.1.2? A Little Nerve Racking

Chuck Adams
 

Thomas,

 

My point was that I made the RRR change in FT8 and that it stayed when I switched over to FT4.

 

Try that.

 

If it doesn’t work this problem is unique, because the change to RRR “propagated” to FT4 for my setup.

 

73,

 

Chuck

KV4VT

 

From: WSJTX@groups.io <WSJTX@groups.io> On Behalf Of Thomas Mize KJ4GK
Sent: 23 February, 2020 10:12 PM
To: WSJTX@groups.io
Subject: Re: [WSJTX] Why NO RRR Option for TX4 for FT4 in WSJT-X v 2.1.2? A Little Nerve Racking

 

Hello Chuck Adams, thanks for your reply. Yes I am aware of this. I mentioned in the message that I can double click on the Radio Button to change. The problem is, once you close WSJT-X and open it again, It Resets. Now go to Mode FT8. If you change to RRR, then close and reopen it will save that setting. I think it is a small bug that over looked. I am running external software that I have designed that integrates with WSJT-X kinda like JT Alert does. This causes and issue with my program. I just wanted to mainly point this out so they can fix it on the next update or maybe someone can figure out a way for this to save.

I have went in the ini file and manually made RR73=False and when you open WSJT-X it still doesn't load it as RRR lol.

Hope this clears up more of what I was asking. Thanks for the reply Chuck.


locked Re: Why NO RRR Option for TX4 for FT4 in WSJT-X v 2.1.2? A Little Nerve Racking

Thomas Mize KJ4GK
 

Hello Chuck Adams, thanks for your reply. Yes I am aware of this. I mentioned in the message that I can double click on the Radio Button to change. The problem is, once you close WSJT-X and open it again, It Resets. Now go to Mode FT8. If you change to RRR, then close and reopen it will save that setting. I think it is a small bug that over looked. I am running external software that I have designed that integrates with WSJT-X kinda like JT Alert does. This causes and issue with my program. I just wanted to mainly point this out so they can fix it on the next update or maybe someone can figure out a way for this to save.

I have went in the ini file and manually made RR73=False and when you open WSJT-X it still doesn't load it as RRR lol.

Hope this clears up more of what I was asking. Thanks for the reply Chuck.


locked Re: Why NO RRR Option for TX4 for FT4 in WSJT-X v 2.1.2? A Little Nerve Racking

Chuck Adams
 

Correction.  Go to tab 1 and double click the circular radio button to the right of RR73 to toggle between RR73 and RRR.



Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device



-------- Original message --------
From: Chuck Adams <cfadams@...>
Date: 2/23/20 3:11 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: WSJTX@groups.io
Subject: Re: [WSJTX] Why NO RRR Option for TX4 for FT4 in WSJT-X v 2.1.2? A Little Nerve Racking

I just used FT4 and I have the RRR option enabled on my screen.  Go to tab 1 and type RRR in place of RR73.

73,

Chuck
KV4VT



Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device



-------- Original message --------
From: Thomas Mize KJ4GK <threemanpro@...>
Date: 2/23/20 2:07 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: WSJTX@groups.io
Subject: [WSJTX] Why NO RRR Option for TX4 for FT4 in WSJT-X v 2.1.2? A Little Nerve Racking

Hello everyone, KJ4GK here. I am sure a lot of you guys have seen my call because I am a FT8 NUTT lol. It has became a Way of LIfe to me honestly ranking in with 24K Contacts since last June. I just now went over to FT4 and found something very weird.

First off I am a Software Designer and can look at programs from that perspective. I am a RRR guy all the way because it Stops that PESTY Log window from poping up until you have for sure made the contact.

For example, I send RR73 to someone then my Log Window Pops up and does all its Log uploading to all 5 of my Log Books, but the other guy didn't get the RR73, so he sends my sig report again, so then WSJT-X sends RR73 again the pops the log window up again....This has happen before one time before I started using RRR only 8 times in a row.

So now FT4, I noticed that it would not allow me to change TX4 over to RRR by double clicking on the button as the pop tool tip explains. But I did find out if I double clicked the Ticker that it would....1 Problem though.... As soon as you close WSJT-X, it writes to the INI file RR73=True and the same when you open for FT4.

One of 2 things is going on here..... The Programmers does not want us using RRR on FT4(Which makes no sense) or its just a simple mistake.

Ive notice since FT4 is so much faster i am having a huge issue on RR73.

This message is going out to Mr. Bill Sommervile. Sorry if I got your last name wrong sir. I envy you my friend. I hope to one day have the programming knowledge that you possess. Would love to talk to you one day and show you the program I have been developing since JUNE but that is another subject.

Can this be possible corrected or is there a way I am missing to get it to save then once 2.1.2 opens it loads up with RRR so that I can go on my business. I haven't figures out how to make my program via UDP change it over for me to make it a lot easier for me. But the UDP commands is another story I would love to talk to you about bill later, just want to stay on topic about the RRR.

Thanks so much, Thomas

KJ4GK "The FT8 soon to be FT4 NUTT lol"


locked Re: Why NO RRR Option for TX4 for FT4 in WSJT-X v 2.1.2? A Little Nerve Racking

Chuck Adams
 

I just used FT4 and I have the RRR option enabled on my screen.  Go to tab 1 and type RRR in place of RR73.

73,

Chuck
KV4VT



Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device



-------- Original message --------
From: Thomas Mize KJ4GK <threemanpro@...>
Date: 2/23/20 2:07 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: WSJTX@groups.io
Subject: [WSJTX] Why NO RRR Option for TX4 for FT4 in WSJT-X v 2.1.2? A Little Nerve Racking

Hello everyone, KJ4GK here. I am sure a lot of you guys have seen my call because I am a FT8 NUTT lol. It has became a Way of LIfe to me honestly ranking in with 24K Contacts since last June. I just now went over to FT4 and found something very weird.

First off I am a Software Designer and can look at programs from that perspective. I am a RRR guy all the way because it Stops that PESTY Log window from poping up until you have for sure made the contact.

For example, I send RR73 to someone then my Log Window Pops up and does all its Log uploading to all 5 of my Log Books, but the other guy didn't get the RR73, so he sends my sig report again, so then WSJT-X sends RR73 again the pops the log window up again....This has happen before one time before I started using RRR only 8 times in a row.

So now FT4, I noticed that it would not allow me to change TX4 over to RRR by double clicking on the button as the pop tool tip explains. But I did find out if I double clicked the Ticker that it would....1 Problem though.... As soon as you close WSJT-X, it writes to the INI file RR73=True and the same when you open for FT4.

One of 2 things is going on here..... The Programmers does not want us using RRR on FT4(Which makes no sense) or its just a simple mistake.

Ive notice since FT4 is so much faster i am having a huge issue on RR73.

This message is going out to Mr. Bill Sommervile. Sorry if I got your last name wrong sir. I envy you my friend. I hope to one day have the programming knowledge that you possess. Would love to talk to you one day and show you the program I have been developing since JUNE but that is another subject.

Can this be possible corrected or is there a way I am missing to get it to save then once 2.1.2 opens it loads up with RRR so that I can go on my business. I haven't figures out how to make my program via UDP change it over for me to make it a lot easier for me. But the UDP commands is another story I would love to talk to you about bill later, just want to stay on topic about the RRR.

Thanks so much, Thomas

KJ4GK "The FT8 soon to be FT4 NUTT lol"


locked Incorrect group

Neil Foster
 

Please note all the messages from groups I subscribe to are from Hamm apps in the sender. However the message content is correct from the proper group.
Neil   N4FN


locked Why NO RRR Option for TX4 for FT4 in WSJT-X v 2.1.2? A Little Nerve Racking

Thomas Mize KJ4GK
 

Hello everyone, KJ4GK here. I am sure a lot of you guys have seen my call because I am a FT8 NUTT lol. It has became a Way of LIfe to me honestly ranking in with 24K Contacts since last June. I just now went over to FT4 and found something very weird.

First off I am a Software Designer and can look at programs from that perspective. I am a RRR guy all the way because it Stops that PESTY Log window from poping up until you have for sure made the contact.

For example, I send RR73 to someone then my Log Window Pops up and does all its Log uploading to all 5 of my Log Books, but the other guy didn't get the RR73, so he sends my sig report again, so then WSJT-X sends RR73 again the pops the log window up again....This has happen before one time before I started using RRR only 8 times in a row.

So now FT4, I noticed that it would not allow me to change TX4 over to RRR by double clicking on the button as the pop tool tip explains. But I did find out if I double clicked the Ticker that it would....1 Problem though.... As soon as you close WSJT-X, it writes to the INI file RR73=True and the same when you open for FT4.

One of 2 things is going on here..... The Programmers does not want us using RRR on FT4(Which makes no sense) or its just a simple mistake.

Ive notice since FT4 is so much faster i am having a huge issue on RR73.

This message is going out to Mr. Bill Sommervile. Sorry if I got your last name wrong sir. I envy you my friend. I hope to one day have the programming knowledge that you possess. Would love to talk to you one day and show you the program I have been developing since JUNE but that is another subject.

Can this be possible corrected or is there a way I am missing to get it to save then once 2.1.2 opens it loads up with RRR so that I can go on my business. I haven't figures out how to make my program via UDP change it over for me to make it a lot easier for me. But the UDP commands is another story I would love to talk to you about bill later, just want to stay on topic about the RRR.

Thanks so much, Thomas

KJ4GK "The FT8 soon to be FT4 NUTT lol"


locked Re: Computer to radio connection YAESU 857/897

Frank Mellott
 



Progress report.

Not sure why this seemed so hard almost 18 months ago.

Using the Yaesu 857D, Yaesu CT62 cable and Tigertronics Signalink.

Plugged the CT62 into the linear port on the 857D.  
Plugged the Signalink into the data port on the 857D.

I used FLRIG as it was already on the computer. Its a Windows 10 machine.

I had issues getting the com port to appear so i downloaded the WMR driver utilty and found the radio was on port 3.


In the configuration window I selected 857D,.
Comport 3
4800 bit rate.

The radio was on 4800 so I used that.

FLRIG initialized the radio.

Opened WSJT-X and configured it.
Frequency showd in FLRIG.
Turned power to 5 watts and transmitted into a dummy load.

Pressed halt tx and it stopped.

Turned off radio.
Plugged the CT62 into the to computer jack on the LDG YT 100 tuner.
Moved the dummy load to the tuner.
Ran coax jumper from tuner to radio.
Ran the LDG data cable from the radio data jack to the radio jack on the tunerl

Repeated test.

Passed.


Using the Yaesu SCU 17 should be the same but only need 1 USB cable to the computer, not 2, as the manual says it runs CAT and audio over the USB cable.


Hope this helps
Frank
KB3PQT


ent from my Galaxy Tab A


locked Re: Best S&P

pete.thomas.fi
 

I'm still looking for help with Best S&P function.

Pete T
oh2euu


locked Re: Interesting double-decode

Bill Lederer
 

Jim:

Dude, you were going neck-and-neck with me on 80 and 20!  Miss those days.

w8lvn


On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 3:15 PM Jim Brown <k9yc@...> wrote:
On 2/22/2020 11:42 AM, Bill Lederer wrote:
> So i am under the impression that switching mode power supplies don't
> operate at mains frequency, or at least their switching will spit off an
> array of frequencies due to the switching. AC Mains I can understand,
> but I think a switching mode power supply will emit some range of
> frequencies that may not be related to the mains frequency.

Right. SMPS start by rectifying AC, there's a minimal capacitor filter,
then a square wave generator running typically running in the range of
10-40kHz chops the DC, which is then rectified and filtered by a much
smaller capacitor. RF noise results from the harmonics of the square
wave, and often extend to 10M. A very high fraction of the RF noise we
hear is generated by SMPS. I estimate that the average home has several
dozen, and wiring connected to them, both on the AC side and the DC
side, radiates the noise as the result of common mode current.

Lots of detail in this tutorial.

http://k9yc.com/KillingReceiveNoise.pdf

BTW -- Bill, you and I met around 2003-4 sitting next to each other on
NSRC Field Day. Your BIC time was an inspiration to me!

73, Jim K9YC





--
--w8lvn--


locked Re: Interesting double-decode

W5ADD@arrl.net
 

20200207_121045 -10 0.3 2741 ~ TI9A W5CIA EM40
20200207_121045 -4 0.3 3221 ~ TI9A W5CIA EM40
20200207_121045 2 0.3 2141 ~ TI9A W5CIA EM40
20200207_121045 3 0.3 1301 ~ TI9A W5CIA EM40
20200207_121045 5 0.3 1541 ~ TI9A W5CIA EM40
20200207_121045 6 0.3 1781 ~ TI9A W5CIA EM40
20200207_121045 7 0.3 1421 ~ TI9A W5CIA EM40
20200207_121045 6 0.4 1950 ~ TI9A N0FW -07 <---- clean signal

This is not caused 1) on the receive end, 2) by plane scatter, nor 3) by any other reflections in the near or far field.

I am using a Flex 6700 connected to the computer over LAN only, and the station is apparently using a 160m horse fence antenna 3,800 ft from me. I know the cause, but the problem persists.

Parker W5ADD



Parker W5ADD


locked Re: Interesting double-decode

Paul <w8aef@...>
 

I see that effect quite often on 6m from a station that is on the other side of the Phoenix airport.
 
Paul, W8AEF


From: WSJTX@groups.io [mailto:WSJTX@groups.io] On Behalf Of Martin G0HDB
Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2020 1:16 PM
To: WSJTX@groups.io
Subject: Re: [WSJTX] Interesting double-decode

On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 07:57 PM, Philip Rose wrote:

So, I see the same signal being decoded several 100 Hz apart on 20m, is this a Doppler effect from what is probably the busiest air route in Europe?
 
I still contend it's over-driving of transmitters. I keep my ALC less than 0dB on datamodes.
The spacing of a Doppler-shifted signal on 20m is, in my opinion, extremely unlikely to ever reach several 100Hz; the plane causing the Doppler would probably need to be moving at hypersonic speeds!  I have to confess I've never seen multiples of the same signal (other than those using FT8 Fox & Hounds mode or the MSHV software) with spacings of the several 100Hz you mention.

In my experience, over-driving a transmitter's audio input usually results in harmonics of the eight FT8 tones that appear as one or more 'bar-code' signals elsewhere across the audio spectrum.  Sadly this is very common.

As for ALC, I believe FT8 uses a constant-amplitude waveform so I'm not sure what effect ALC might have on that; I wouldn't expect running with a degree of ALC to have any adverse effect on the purity of the transmitted signal.  However, I recall there have been many previous discussions on this so I probably need to refresh my understanding of this aspect!  Does ALC have any adverse effect on the quality of an RTTY signal, which is in effect a 2-tone FSK signal rather than the 8-tone (G)FSK signal used by FT8?

--
Martin G0HDB


locked Re: Interesting double-decode

Denny - K0TT
 

I see this occasionally on HF, usually when the geomagnetic field is disturbed. I assume it's caused by multipath or doppler distortion. 


locked WSJTX, Mac, FLRIG crashes

Yancy - W5XY
 

Hello all! I'm having some issues with WSJTX playing nice with FLRIG. WSJTX without flrig works flawlessly. 
WSJT-X v2.1.2 0068f9
FLRig 1.3
Mac Catalina
Yaesu FT-991A
and Grid Tracker to log and track.

I can get them to all work in unison but WSJT-x randomly crashes. Its seems to happen more when trying to change frequencies. I did find the thread about updating HamLib but that didn't seem to help. 

I'm hoping someone else may have ad the same issues and could help. 

Thank you de W5YGS


locked Re: 60 meters: Operating guidelines for FT8

Ria, N2RJ
 

Out of respect for the list owners and participants I’m not furthering this discussion.

You may contact me offline.


73
Ria,N2RJ 

On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 5:11 PM Bruce <n7xgr1@...> wrote:
Ria,  I think Seannon is over thinking this by citing this and that CFR.
One must think like Perry Mason where he sometimes looks for what is
missing to solve his case.  This is what I posted earlier,
This is from, 47 CFR Part 97 - September 23 2014-2

(h) 60 m band: (1) In the 5330.5-5406.4 kHz band (60 m band), amateur stations may transmit only on the five center frequencies specified in the
table below. In order to meet this requirement, control operators of stations transmitting phone, data, and RTTY emissions (emission designators
2K80J3E, 2K80J2D, and 60H0J2B, respectively) may set the carrier frequency 1.5 kHz below the center frequency as specified in the table below. For
CW emissions (emission designator 150HA1A), the carrier frequency is set to the center frequency. Amateur operators shall ensure that their emissions
do not occupy more than 2.8 kHz centered on each of these center frequencies.

It only states that CW is to be set at the 1.5 KHz center frequency point.
The last sentence is the boundary limit for phone, data and RTTY emissions.
Notice what is missing in the sentence for CW emissions, it does not include
data and RTTY modes.
If the FCC wanted to specify that the transmission of CW, data and RTTY they would have
worded it that these will be on the channel center frequency like in this case 5358.5 KHz.
Take 2.8 KHz divide by 2 is 1.4 KHz.  Center channel is 5358.5, subtract 1.4 KHz, is 5357.1,
add 1.4 gives you 5359.9. The limits are 5357.1 to 5359.9.  Notice the 2.8 KHz centered,
that to me is the reference point for the limits.  We are staying within these limits.
I do believe by now that the FCC would have sent notice and the ARRL will then issue
a bulletin informing all US Hams to cease FT8 activity in 60 meters especially on channel 3 (5357 KHz)
unless the transmission is on 5358.5 KHz or 1.5 KHz on the waterfall when the VFO is on 5357 KHz.
One other point to make is the total amount of available frequency is 14 KHz for all 5 channels
and digital operations like FT8 is using less than the 2.8 KHz available for channel 3.
The one emission mode, 2K80J2D pertains to data which means any data mode that is less than
2.8 KHz is allowed and which includes FT8 at 50 Hz.  Also what is missing for this designator
is the exact type of data emission, so any mode less than 2.8 KHz is OK.
And note this, " may set the carrier frequency 1.5 kHz below the center frequency"
which in this case is 5357 KHz for channel 3, again another reference point.
If we left the VFO on 5358.5 USB and had the TX cursor on the waterfall on the 0 Hz
mark we would be out of the TX filter passband which will result with no power out.
This why the rules permit that we can set the carrier frequency 1.5 KHz below at 5357 KHz.
Another thing to note, " In order to meet this requirement", the FCC is allowing the operator
to set the carrier frequency 1.5 KHz lower.
I now look forward for someone to start screaming in the courtroom proclaiming "I did it, I did it".

Bruce  N7XGR


On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 1:27 AM Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...> wrote:
Also, the rules regarding the center frequencies are not clear. FT8 doesn’t have a carrier. It’s SSB suppressed carrier. It’s FSK and its signal shifts during transmission. The word “may” and not “required” is used. So the part about where 60m FT8 must operate dead center is not really backed by anything. Also, DX stations are not bound by FCC and NTIA rules. 

You or someone said that “complaints from the FCC have been pouring into the ARRL” about this kind of operation. I have heard of no such complaints from neither the FCC nor NTIA and I’ve asked several at the League. So I’m asking, please do not spread such false rumors. They are unfounded. 

73
Ria, N2RJ 

On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 12:53 AM Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:
except the R&O is not the law, CFAR is, it specifically states PACTORIII, PSK31 CW and RTTY not all iterations of these emissions codes, so, no, it's NOT clear there, but, that's my interpretation, it's questionable to me that FT8 is appropriate. if you JUST go by the emissions code, then it's legal go ahead, but another thing they're VERY specific on, which is kinda antithetical to how FT8 works, is "no more than one transmission on the channel at any time" and you can only operate on the exact frequency, not wherever you want in the passband.
take it how you want, just please don't ruin it for the rest of us?
Seannon AG0NY

On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 11:24 PM Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...> wrote:
The R&O is crystal clear.

28. Finally, we agree with commenters that limiting digital operation
to a specific technique
discourages the further development of additional techniques, which
may be more efficient than those
currently in use. Therefore, we permit an amateur station transmitting
RTTY emission 60H0J2B or data
emission 2K80J2D to use any unspecified digital code, subject to the
requirements of Section 97.309(b).

Again, "we permit an amateur station transmitting RTTY emission 60H0J2B or data
emission 2K80J2D to use any unspecified digital code, subject to the
requirements of Section 97.309(b)" - this means that ANY digital code
can be used, provided it's not obscured (encrypted),

2K80J2D is simply "Data" which covers FT8 and is an allowed emission type.

Here is a refresher on how to read the emission types:

2K80 - Bandwidth not to exceed 2.8kHz (meaning, any bandwidth up to 2.80kHz
J - Amplitude Modulation, Single Sideband, Suppressed Carrier - Check
2 - Digital with modulation - Check
D - Data, telecommand or telemetry - Check

Any reasonable person can therefore conclude that FT8 is not illegal
on 60 metres under US rules..

Hope this helps.

73
Ria, N2RJ


On Sat, 22 Feb 2020 at 00:04, Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:
>
> from the R&O here... https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2012/02/03/2012-2477https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2012/02/03/2012-2477/amateur-radio-use-of-the-allocation-at-5-mhz/amateur-radio-use-of-the-allocation-at-5-mhz
>
>
> 9. Under the existing rules, only upper sideband voice transmissions are permitted in the 60 meter band. In the NPRM, the Commission proposed to authorize the use of three additional emission designators in the band: CW emission 150HA1A, which is Morse telegraphy by means of on-off keying, and data emissions 2K80J2D and 60H0J2B. In § 97.307(f)(14)(i) of the proposed rules, the Commission restricts emission designator 2K80J2D to data using PACTOR-III technique and emission designator 60H0J2B to data using PSK31 technique. The Commission also sought comment on whether amateur stations could be permitted to transmit emission types in addition to those requested by ARRL in the 60 meter band without increasing the likelihood of interference to primary users. As discussed, the Commission adopts its proposal to allow the use of the three additional emission designators.
>
> 10. Emission Designators. Our proposal drew a wide range of responses. Although the majority of commenters fully or generally support the proposals that the Commission made in the NPRM, many commenters expressed concerns about some or all of the proposed new emission designators. Commenters were most supportive of the proposed addition of emission designators 150HA1A and 60H0J2B. By contrast, the proposal to add emission type 2K80J2D proved much more divisive. The record also includes a few commenters who are skeptical that additional emission types are appropriate for the 60 meter band.
>
> 12. Specific Techniques of the Data Emissions. Commenters strongly believe that the use of the emission designators 60H0J2B and 2K80J2D should not be restricted to the specific techniques of PSK31 and PACTOR-III, respectively. This approach differs from what was proposed in the NPRM. This is why I question the legality of FT8, it SPECIFICALLY STATES EVERYWHERE PACTORIII, not PACTORIII and other2k80J2D emissions. specifically PACTORIII and PSK31. I agree it "SHOULDN'T matter, but it quite possibly DOES matter. also, it SPECIFICALLY STATES PSK31, CW, PACTORIII and RTTY on the band charts
>
> 14. The Commission recognizes that many commenters are concerned that the addition of new emission types— data emission types in general and PACTOR-III specifically—holds the risk of reducing the utility of these channels for many amateurs, especially for those who may not readily recognize data transmissions and may avoid use of the channels out of an abundance of caution. The Commission concludes that there are ways to minimize any potential disruption that the new emission types could cause. ARRL notes that amateur “stations typically utilize relatively short transmissions in telegraphy and are able to manually detect the presence of a non-Amateur signal within the channel bandwidth while operating in that mode” and that the “same is true of 60H0J2B and 2K80J2D emissions, if careful manual operating practices are used.” Moreover, ARRL commits to the necessary dissemination of “best practices” information to the amateur community on a timely basis and to the adoption and publication of a comprehensive band plan for these channels that will maintain maximum flexibility in Amateur use without interference. Lastly, the Commission adopts certain operational rules, which will serve to ensure that the new emission types are used in a manner that promotes continued shared use of the band by all. do you listen to your radio on the digital modes? or just use the waterfall?
>
> Seannon AG0NY
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> (ii) The following requirements also apply:
>
> (A) When transmitting the phone, RTTY, and data emissions, the suppressed carrier frequency may be set as specified in § 97.303(h).
>
> (B) The control operator of a station transmitting data or RTTY emissions must exercise care to limit the length of transmission so as to avoid causing harmful interference to United States Government stations.
>
> 8. Section 97.313 is amended by revising paragraphs (f) and (i) to read as follows.
>
> § 97.313
> Transmitter power standards.
> * * * * *
>
> (f) No station may transmit with a transmitter power exceeding 50 W PEP on the UHF 70 cm band from an area specified in paragraph (a) of footnote US270 in § 2.106, unless expressly authorized by the FCC after mutual agreement, on a case-by-case basis, between the District Director of the applicable field facility and the military area frequency coordinator at the applicable military base. An Earth station or telecommand station, however, may transmit on the 435-438 MHz segment with a maximum of 611 W effective radiated power (1 kW equivalent isotropically radiated power) without the authorization otherwise required. The transmitting antenna elevation angle between the lower half-power (−3 dB relative to the peak or antenna bore sight) point and the horizon must always be greater than 10°.
>
> * * * * *
>
> (i) No station may transmit with an effective radiated power (ERP) exceeding 100 W PEP on the 60 m band. For the purpose of computing ERP, the transmitter PEP will be multiplied by the antenna gain relative to a half-wave dipole antenna. A half-wave dipole antenna will be presumed to have a gain of 1 (0 dBd). Licensees using other antennas must maintain in their station records either the antenna manufacturer's data on the antenna gain or calculations of the antenna gain.
>
> * * * * *
>
> Footnotes
>
> 1. The RFA, see 5 U.S.C. 601-612, has been amended by the Small Business Regulatory Enforcement Fairness Act of 1996 (SBREFA), Public Law 104-121, Title II, 110 Stat. 857 (1996).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 2. 5 U.S.C. 605(b).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 3. 5 U.S.C. 601(6).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 4. 5 U.S.C. 601(3) (incorporating by reference the definition of “small business concern” in the Small Business Act, 15 U.S.C. 632). Pursuant to 5 U.S.C. 601(3), the statutory definition of a small business applies “unless an agency, after consultation with the Office of Advocacy of the Small Business Administration and after opportunity for public comment, establishes one or more definitions of such term which are appropriate to the activities of the agency and publishes such definition(s) in the Federal Register.”
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 5. 15 U.S.C. 632.
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 6. See 5 U.S.C. 605(b).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 7. See 5 U.S.C. 801(a)(1)(A).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 8. See 5 U.S.C. 604(b).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> BILLING CODE 6712-01-P
>
> BILLING CODE 6712-01-C
>
> [FR Doc. 2012-2477 Filed 2-2-12; 8:45 am]
>
> BILLING CODE 6712-01-P
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 10:07 PM Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...> wrote:
>>
>> "I'm not even entirely convinced that it's legal for us to use FT8 on
>> this band AT ALL because they don't specify it, they mention CW,
>> PSK31, PACTORIII (not AMTOR or any other similar modes) and
>> begrudgingly RTTY"
>>
>> You may not be entirely convinced, but the R&O is pretty clear:
>>
>> Finally, we agree with commenters that limiting digital operation to a
>> specific technique
>> discourages the further development of additional techniques, which
>> may be more efficient than those
>> currently in use. >>>Therefore, we permit an amateur station
>> transmitting RTTY emission 60H0J2B or data
>> emission 2K80J2D to use any unspecified digital code, subject to the
>> requirements of Section 97.309(b).<<<
>>
>> Note the highlighted part. Any unspecified digital code may be used.
>> FT8 falls under that and is not illegal on 60m.
>>
>> 73
>> Ria, N2RJ
>>
>> On Fri, 21 Feb 2020 at 22:42, Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hassan, I'm going to pick out a bit of info here... you stated that being able to use full bandwidth for SSB, but only the bandwidth of a single transmission on digital, which for this band is CW, (on off, not modulated) PSK31, PACTORIII, and RTTY, RTTY seems to have been added begrudgingly, but the important things of note are 1. WE ARE SECONDARY ON THIS BAND! , not primary, so we exist here only as long as we do things the way we won't get in trouble, we may get a slice of the band at some point, but we need to prove our ability to abide by the rules. 2, the band poster is pretty clear on the rules for this band,  it really is, 3. when you consider the types of use the primary users of the band have for it, (governmental) it makes sense that it would be one station transmitting at a time, period, if you transmit over someone else's transmission, you are causing interference. if you can't hear the station, it's unintentional, if you do it and you KNOW there's someone transmitting, it's INTENTIONAL INTERFERENCE, and against FCC regs anyway...like if you're hearing a pileup and everyone's running 50 watts, and you decide to heck with them, I'm going to make this contact if it kills me and slam them with a beam and full legal limit, you're breaking the intent of the rules. going back to the use, we are secondary, if you have 35 stations clogging up the channel, it would take much more time to tell each person QRT than the one or two that it would be.
>> >
>> > think of it this way, we are "BORROWING" the car... what rules should you follow when you borrow the car? the ones the person that let you use the car has, along with all local laws... don't get it dirty, don't wreck it, don't leave dirty diapers or used condoms in it don't do something that makes the person that has the car say I don't think I want to let you borrow the car again.
>> >
>> > the rules on this band are restrictive for a reason, just as their own internal rules are on the band. I'm not even entirely convinced that it's legal for us to use FT8 on this band AT ALL because they don't specify it, they mention CW, PSK31, PACTORIII (not AMTOR or any other similar modes) and begrudgingly RTTY
>> >
>> > Seannon, AG0NY
>> >
>> > Only one signal at a time is permitted on any channel." (From ARRL Band Poster)
>> > http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/Band%20Chart/Band%20Chart%20-%2011X17%20Color.pdf
>> >
>> > More on Center of Channel ( 1500 Hz) Requirement:
>> >
>> > "With your PSK31 software display configured to indicate audio frequencies, click your mouse cursor at the 1500 Hz mark (see below). With your radio in the USB mode, this marker indicates the center of the channel and it is the frequency on which you should be transmitting."
>> >
>> > There is no special exemption for FT8, the same center channel rule applies.
>> >
>> > In Summary from the ARRL:
>> >
>> > 1. Only one station may transmit at a time.
>> > 2. They must be at he CENTER of the allocated channel (1500 Hz)
>> > 3. NTIA has defined "on channel" as precisely 1.5 kHz below the assigned channel frequency.
>> >
>> > These are highly restrictive and have NOT been enforced. I posted my initial "Be Careful" message, because I was warned by someone familiar with the upcoming ARRL take-over of the FCC certified Monitoring Program, that once the new program had officially started : ENFORCEMENT WOULD BE FORTHCOMING and the enforcement will include referrals to the FCC for action.
>> >
>> > Unfortunately, the comment below reflects the attitude of many USA amateurs:
>> >
>> >  "If the FCC is that concerned about legitimate FT8 use within that 2.8 KHz BW, they need to clarify their own rules and rationale and make this clarification known.  Because right now, its as clear as mud.  "Field Day" for lawyers, so to speak."
>> >
>> > But the rules ARE clear here, there's a power level, compared to known quantity, they specifically give both CW center frequencies and USB frequencies as "Channels" they also give specific emissions types that are allowed, also, don't transmit when you can hear a station transmitting (only one station transmitting at any time) now, as for the rationale? that's not for us really, we have the rules to follow.
>> >
>> > As a result,  the 60m requirements for digital, (FT8 included), have been summarily ignored if not outright violated. I, myself did so, because I did not understand how one could reasonably operate a full SSB bandwidth and that was ok, but could not use the entire 2.8 kHz bandwidth for multiple narrow band FT8 transmissions. It makes NO sense. But....the rule is unforgiving and I have been told they are going to enforce it.
>> > It makes much more sense when you consider the government as primary, with us as secondary, it would take much more time to contact 20-30 stations to tell them to QRT than one or two governments would not try to stuff a ton of traffic in a single channel like this, they go for reliable communications over efficiency, unlike hams
>> >
>> >
>> > Only one signal at a time is permitted on any channel." (From ARRL Band Poster)
>> > http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/Band%20Chart/Band%20Chart%20-%2011X17%20Color.pdf
>> >
>> > More on Center of Channel ( 1500 Hz) Requirement:
>> >
>> > "With your PSK31 software display configured to indicate audio frequencies, click your mouse cursor at the 1500 Hz mark (see below). With your radio in the USB mode, this marker indicates the center of the channel and it is the frequency on which you should be transmitting."
>> >
>> > There is no special exemption for FT8, the same center channel rule applies.
>> >
>> > In Summary from the ARRL:
>> >
>> > 1. Only one station may transmit at a time.
>> > 2. They must be at he CENTER of the allocated channel (1500 Hz)
>> > 3. NTIA has defined "on channel" as precisely 1.5 kHz below the assigned channel frequency.
>> >
>> > These are highly restrictive and have NOT been enforced. I posted my initial "Be Careful" message, because I was warned by someone familiar with the upcoming ARRL take-over of the FCC certified Monitoring Program, that once the new program had officially started : ENFORCEMENT WOULD BE FORTHCOMING and the enforcement will include referrals to the FCC for action.
>> >
>> > Unfortunately, the comment below reflects the attitude of many USA amateurs:
>> >
>> >  "If the FCC is that concerned about legitimate FT8 use within that 2.8 KHz BW, they need to clarify their own rules and rationale and make this clarification known.  Because right now, its as clear as mud.  "Field Day" for lawyers, so to speak."
>> > The rules are pretty well spelled out, look at the chart above, there's channel info and conversions, , center channels, power requirements in relation to a specific antenna, and emissions modes (PSK31, PACTORIII not AMTOR or similar modes and RTTY, so it's questionable as to the legality of FT8 here anyway.
>> > As a result,  the 60m requirements for digital, (FT8 included), have been summarily ignored if not outright violated. I, myself did so, because I did not understand how one could reasonably operate a full SSB bandwidth and that was ok, but could not use the entire 2.8 kHz bandwidth for multiple narrow band FT8 transmissions. It makes NO sense. But....the rule is unforgiving and I have been told they are going to enforce it.
>> > It makes a lot more sense when you consider the PRIMARY on the band, and not us as amateurs that are secondary. governments would use this as close to a clear channel for simplicity's sake especially true in emergency communications, or wartime, so, if you hear someone transmitting, wait, don't transmit on top of them, it could be life or death. We as hams like to make the case for efficiency, the government for reliable communications
>> >
>> > I have advocated one thing and one thing only: Be Careful. I don't have horse this race. It would be a shame, however, if we lost this allocation or someone would get a QSL card from the FCC because they refused to exercise some caution in the matter.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I have advocated one thing and one thing only: Be Careful. I don't have horse this race. It would be a shame, however, if we lost this allocation or someone would get a QSL card from the FCC because they refused to exercise some caution in the matter.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 7:55 AM Hasan Schiers N0AN <hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> From the ARRL:
>> >> These are channel-center frequencies, not the ones you tune your radio to. The NTIA told the FCC that hams "must assure that their signal is transmitted on the channel-center frequency." This means the amateur signal must be centered within the 2.8-kHz-wide channel. The FCC has provided scant guidance beyond suggesting--in a footnote that follows the NTIA's advice--that amateurs tune 1.5 kHz below the center-channel frequencies to be "on channel." Amateurs need to be sure that the tuning display readout reflects transmitted (ie, carrier) frequency (most do). Consult your transceiver's manual if you're not sure.
>> >>
>> >> From the ARRL:
>> >> In addition, the FCC continues to require that all digital transmissions be centered on the channel-center frequencies, which the Report and Order defines as being 1.5 kHz above the suppressed carrier frequency of a transceiver operated in the Upper Sideband (USB) mode. This is typically the frequency shown on the frequency display.
>> >>
>> >> (Note that this does not say 1580, 1320, 700, ...it says 1.5 kHz) my comment, not ARRL's)
>> >>
>> >> http://www.arrl.org/60m-channel-allocation
>> >> "Operating at strict channel-center frequencies may come as a disappointment to many, but cooperating with the NTIA is key to expanded privileges in the future.
>> >> The channel center frequencies are":..snipped...60 meters
>> >>
>> >> "Only one signal at a time is permitted on any channel." (From ARRL Band Poster)
>> >> http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/Band%20Chart/Band%20Chart%20-%2011X17%20Color.pdf
>> >>
>> >> More on Center of Channel ( 1500 Hz) Requirement:
>> >>
>> >> "With your PSK31 software display configured to indicate audio frequencies, click your mouse cursor at the 1500 Hz mark (see below). With your radio in the USB mode, this marker indicates the center of the channel and it is the frequency on which you should be transmitting."
>> >>
>> >> There is no special exemption for FT8, the same center channel rule applies.
>> >>
>> >> In Summary from the ARRL:
>> >>
>> >> 1. Only one station may transmit at a time.
>> >> 2. They must be at he CENTER of the allocated channel (1500 Hz)
>> >> 3. NTIA has defined "on channel" as precisely 1.5 kHz below the assigned channel frequency.
>> >>
>> >> These are highly restrictive and have NOT been enforced. I posted my initial "Be Careful" message, because I was warned by someone familiar with the upcoming ARRL take-over of the FCC certified Monitoring Program, that once the new program had officially started : ENFORCEMENT WOULD BE FORTHCOMING and the enforcement will include referrals to the FCC for action.
>> >>
>> >> Unfortunately, the comment below reflects the attitude of many USA amateurs:
>> >>
>> >>  "If the FCC is that concerned about legitimate FT8 use within that 2.8 KHz BW, they need to clarify their own rules and rationale and make this clarification known.  Because right now, its as clear as mud.  "Field Day" for lawyers, so to speak."
>> >>
>> >> As a result,  the 60m requirements for digital, (FT8 included), have been summarily ignored if not outright violated. I, myself did so, because I did not understand how one could reasonably operate a full SSB bandwidth and that was ok, but could not use the entire 2.8 kHz bandwidth for multiple narrow band FT8 transmissions. It makes NO sense. But....the rule is unforgiving and I have been told they are going to enforce it.
>> >>
>> >> I have advocated one thing and one thing only: Be Careful. I don't have horse this race. It would be a shame, however, if we lost this allocation or someone would get a QSL card from the FCC because they refused to exercise some caution in the matter.
>> >>
>> >> 73, N0AN
>> >> Hasan
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 5:41 AM Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Also, it clearly states that no more than one station transmit at any given time thus also limiting to a conversational rather than a transactional contact type. (If you hear a conversation, don't transmit, if you hear a CQ, answer it unless you hear someone else answering)
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Seannon, ag0ny
>> >>>
>> >>> On Thu, Feb 20, 2020, 05:15 Nc8q-mesh@... <nc8q-mesh@...> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On 2/20/20 5:17 AM, Hasan Schiers N0AN wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Again, ARRL have *on multiple occasions* reported communications from
>> >>>> FCC Enforcement staff (and NTIA who are responsible for the "60 M
>> >>>> band") reminding US licensed amateurs that 97.303(h) requires using
>> >>>> *identical* audio frequency and carrier offsets so that the transmitted
>> >>>> signal is centered exactly on the middle of the assigned "Channel" -
>> >>>> not generating a random offset within a 2.7 KHz "band".
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> IMHO, this discussion of operating FT8 on 60 meters deserves its own thread.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>  From looking at the waterfall display (Wide Graph),
>> >>>> it seems to me that a FT8 Tx frequency of 1500 indicates signals from
>> >>>> 'dial frequency + 1500 Hz' to 'dial frequency + ~1548 Hz'.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The get TX signals centered on 1500 Hz,
>> >>>>  would it not require setting WSJTX to 1476 Hz ?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Chuck
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > “It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”
>> >
>> > Nikola Tesla
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
> --
> “It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”
>
> Nikola Tesla
>
>
>



--
“It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”

Nikola Tesla





locked Re: 60 meters: Operating guidelines for FT8

Bruce N7XGR
 

Ria,  I think Seannon is over thinking this by citing this and that CFR.
One must think like Perry Mason where he sometimes looks for what is
missing to solve his case.  This is what I posted earlier,
This is from, 47 CFR Part 97 - September 23 2014-2

(h) 60 m band: (1) In the 5330.5-5406.4 kHz band (60 m band), amateur stations may transmit only on the five center frequencies specified in the
table below. In order to meet this requirement, control operators of stations transmitting phone, data, and RTTY emissions (emission designators
2K80J3E, 2K80J2D, and 60H0J2B, respectively) may set the carrier frequency 1.5 kHz below the center frequency as specified in the table below. For
CW emissions (emission designator 150HA1A), the carrier frequency is set to the center frequency. Amateur operators shall ensure that their emissions
do not occupy more than 2.8 kHz centered on each of these center frequencies.

It only states that CW is to be set at the 1.5 KHz center frequency point.
The last sentence is the boundary limit for phone, data and RTTY emissions.
Notice what is missing in the sentence for CW emissions, it does not include
data and RTTY modes.
If the FCC wanted to specify that the transmission of CW, data and RTTY they would have
worded it that these will be on the channel center frequency like in this case 5358.5 KHz.
Take 2.8 KHz divide by 2 is 1.4 KHz.  Center channel is 5358.5, subtract 1.4 KHz, is 5357.1,
add 1.4 gives you 5359.9. The limits are 5357.1 to 5359.9.  Notice the 2.8 KHz centered,
that to me is the reference point for the limits.  We are staying within these limits.
I do believe by now that the FCC would have sent notice and the ARRL will then issue
a bulletin informing all US Hams to cease FT8 activity in 60 meters especially on channel 3 (5357 KHz)
unless the transmission is on 5358.5 KHz or 1.5 KHz on the waterfall when the VFO is on 5357 KHz.
One other point to make is the total amount of available frequency is 14 KHz for all 5 channels
and digital operations like FT8 is using less than the 2.8 KHz available for channel 3.
The one emission mode, 2K80J2D pertains to data which means any data mode that is less than
2.8 KHz is allowed and which includes FT8 at 50 Hz.  Also what is missing for this designator
is the exact type of data emission, so any mode less than 2.8 KHz is OK.
And note this, " may set the carrier frequency 1.5 kHz below the center frequency"
which in this case is 5357 KHz for channel 3, again another reference point.
If we left the VFO on 5358.5 USB and had the TX cursor on the waterfall on the 0 Hz
mark we would be out of the TX filter passband which will result with no power out.
This why the rules permit that we can set the carrier frequency 1.5 KHz below at 5357 KHz.
Another thing to note, " In order to meet this requirement", the FCC is allowing the operator
to set the carrier frequency 1.5 KHz lower.
I now look forward for someone to start screaming in the courtroom proclaiming "I did it, I did it".

Bruce  N7XGR


On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 1:27 AM Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...> wrote:
Also, the rules regarding the center frequencies are not clear. FT8 doesn’t have a carrier. It’s SSB suppressed carrier. It’s FSK and its signal shifts during transmission. The word “may” and not “required” is used. So the part about where 60m FT8 must operate dead center is not really backed by anything. Also, DX stations are not bound by FCC and NTIA rules. 

You or someone said that “complaints from the FCC have been pouring into the ARRL” about this kind of operation. I have heard of no such complaints from neither the FCC nor NTIA and I’ve asked several at the League. So I’m asking, please do not spread such false rumors. They are unfounded. 

73
Ria, N2RJ 

On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 12:53 AM Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:
except the R&O is not the law, CFAR is, it specifically states PACTORIII, PSK31 CW and RTTY not all iterations of these emissions codes, so, no, it's NOT clear there, but, that's my interpretation, it's questionable to me that FT8 is appropriate. if you JUST go by the emissions code, then it's legal go ahead, but another thing they're VERY specific on, which is kinda antithetical to how FT8 works, is "no more than one transmission on the channel at any time" and you can only operate on the exact frequency, not wherever you want in the passband.
take it how you want, just please don't ruin it for the rest of us?
Seannon AG0NY

On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 11:24 PM Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...> wrote:
The R&O is crystal clear.

28. Finally, we agree with commenters that limiting digital operation
to a specific technique
discourages the further development of additional techniques, which
may be more efficient than those
currently in use. Therefore, we permit an amateur station transmitting
RTTY emission 60H0J2B or data
emission 2K80J2D to use any unspecified digital code, subject to the
requirements of Section 97.309(b).

Again, "we permit an amateur station transmitting RTTY emission 60H0J2B or data
emission 2K80J2D to use any unspecified digital code, subject to the
requirements of Section 97.309(b)" - this means that ANY digital code
can be used, provided it's not obscured (encrypted),

2K80J2D is simply "Data" which covers FT8 and is an allowed emission type.

Here is a refresher on how to read the emission types:

2K80 - Bandwidth not to exceed 2.8kHz (meaning, any bandwidth up to 2.80kHz
J - Amplitude Modulation, Single Sideband, Suppressed Carrier - Check
2 - Digital with modulation - Check
D - Data, telecommand or telemetry - Check

Any reasonable person can therefore conclude that FT8 is not illegal
on 60 metres under US rules..

Hope this helps.

73
Ria, N2RJ


On Sat, 22 Feb 2020 at 00:04, Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:
>
> from the R&O here... https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2012/02/03/2012-2477https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2012/02/03/2012-2477/amateur-radio-use-of-the-allocation-at-5-mhz/amateur-radio-use-of-the-allocation-at-5-mhz
>
>
> 9. Under the existing rules, only upper sideband voice transmissions are permitted in the 60 meter band. In the NPRM, the Commission proposed to authorize the use of three additional emission designators in the band: CW emission 150HA1A, which is Morse telegraphy by means of on-off keying, and data emissions 2K80J2D and 60H0J2B. In § 97.307(f)(14)(i) of the proposed rules, the Commission restricts emission designator 2K80J2D to data using PACTOR-III technique and emission designator 60H0J2B to data using PSK31 technique. The Commission also sought comment on whether amateur stations could be permitted to transmit emission types in addition to those requested by ARRL in the 60 meter band without increasing the likelihood of interference to primary users. As discussed, the Commission adopts its proposal to allow the use of the three additional emission designators.
>
> 10. Emission Designators. Our proposal drew a wide range of responses. Although the majority of commenters fully or generally support the proposals that the Commission made in the NPRM, many commenters expressed concerns about some or all of the proposed new emission designators. Commenters were most supportive of the proposed addition of emission designators 150HA1A and 60H0J2B. By contrast, the proposal to add emission type 2K80J2D proved much more divisive. The record also includes a few commenters who are skeptical that additional emission types are appropriate for the 60 meter band.
>
> 12. Specific Techniques of the Data Emissions. Commenters strongly believe that the use of the emission designators 60H0J2B and 2K80J2D should not be restricted to the specific techniques of PSK31 and PACTOR-III, respectively. This approach differs from what was proposed in the NPRM. This is why I question the legality of FT8, it SPECIFICALLY STATES EVERYWHERE PACTORIII, not PACTORIII and other2k80J2D emissions. specifically PACTORIII and PSK31. I agree it "SHOULDN'T matter, but it quite possibly DOES matter. also, it SPECIFICALLY STATES PSK31, CW, PACTORIII and RTTY on the band charts
>
> 14. The Commission recognizes that many commenters are concerned that the addition of new emission types— data emission types in general and PACTOR-III specifically—holds the risk of reducing the utility of these channels for many amateurs, especially for those who may not readily recognize data transmissions and may avoid use of the channels out of an abundance of caution. The Commission concludes that there are ways to minimize any potential disruption that the new emission types could cause. ARRL notes that amateur “stations typically utilize relatively short transmissions in telegraphy and are able to manually detect the presence of a non-Amateur signal within the channel bandwidth while operating in that mode” and that the “same is true of 60H0J2B and 2K80J2D emissions, if careful manual operating practices are used.” Moreover, ARRL commits to the necessary dissemination of “best practices” information to the amateur community on a timely basis and to the adoption and publication of a comprehensive band plan for these channels that will maintain maximum flexibility in Amateur use without interference. Lastly, the Commission adopts certain operational rules, which will serve to ensure that the new emission types are used in a manner that promotes continued shared use of the band by all. do you listen to your radio on the digital modes? or just use the waterfall?
>
> Seannon AG0NY
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> (ii) The following requirements also apply:
>
> (A) When transmitting the phone, RTTY, and data emissions, the suppressed carrier frequency may be set as specified in § 97.303(h).
>
> (B) The control operator of a station transmitting data or RTTY emissions must exercise care to limit the length of transmission so as to avoid causing harmful interference to United States Government stations.
>
> 8. Section 97.313 is amended by revising paragraphs (f) and (i) to read as follows.
>
> § 97.313
> Transmitter power standards.
> * * * * *
>
> (f) No station may transmit with a transmitter power exceeding 50 W PEP on the UHF 70 cm band from an area specified in paragraph (a) of footnote US270 in § 2.106, unless expressly authorized by the FCC after mutual agreement, on a case-by-case basis, between the District Director of the applicable field facility and the military area frequency coordinator at the applicable military base. An Earth station or telecommand station, however, may transmit on the 435-438 MHz segment with a maximum of 611 W effective radiated power (1 kW equivalent isotropically radiated power) without the authorization otherwise required. The transmitting antenna elevation angle between the lower half-power (−3 dB relative to the peak or antenna bore sight) point and the horizon must always be greater than 10°.
>
> * * * * *
>
> (i) No station may transmit with an effective radiated power (ERP) exceeding 100 W PEP on the 60 m band. For the purpose of computing ERP, the transmitter PEP will be multiplied by the antenna gain relative to a half-wave dipole antenna. A half-wave dipole antenna will be presumed to have a gain of 1 (0 dBd). Licensees using other antennas must maintain in their station records either the antenna manufacturer's data on the antenna gain or calculations of the antenna gain.
>
> * * * * *
>
> Footnotes
>
> 1. The RFA, see 5 U.S.C. 601-612, has been amended by the Small Business Regulatory Enforcement Fairness Act of 1996 (SBREFA), Public Law 104-121, Title II, 110 Stat. 857 (1996).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 2. 5 U.S.C. 605(b).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 3. 5 U.S.C. 601(6).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 4. 5 U.S.C. 601(3) (incorporating by reference the definition of “small business concern” in the Small Business Act, 15 U.S.C. 632). Pursuant to 5 U.S.C. 601(3), the statutory definition of a small business applies “unless an agency, after consultation with the Office of Advocacy of the Small Business Administration and after opportunity for public comment, establishes one or more definitions of such term which are appropriate to the activities of the agency and publishes such definition(s) in the Federal Register.”
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 5. 15 U.S.C. 632.
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 6. See 5 U.S.C. 605(b).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 7. See 5 U.S.C. 801(a)(1)(A).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 8. See 5 U.S.C. 604(b).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> BILLING CODE 6712-01-P
>
> BILLING CODE 6712-01-C
>
> [FR Doc. 2012-2477 Filed 2-2-12; 8:45 am]
>
> BILLING CODE 6712-01-P
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 10:07 PM Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...> wrote:
>>
>> "I'm not even entirely convinced that it's legal for us to use FT8 on
>> this band AT ALL because they don't specify it, they mention CW,
>> PSK31, PACTORIII (not AMTOR or any other similar modes) and
>> begrudgingly RTTY"
>>
>> You may not be entirely convinced, but the R&O is pretty clear:
>>
>> Finally, we agree with commenters that limiting digital operation to a
>> specific technique
>> discourages the further development of additional techniques, which
>> may be more efficient than those
>> currently in use. >>>Therefore, we permit an amateur station
>> transmitting RTTY emission 60H0J2B or data
>> emission 2K80J2D to use any unspecified digital code, subject to the
>> requirements of Section 97.309(b).<<<
>>
>> Note the highlighted part. Any unspecified digital code may be used.
>> FT8 falls under that and is not illegal on 60m.
>>
>> 73
>> Ria, N2RJ
>>
>> On Fri, 21 Feb 2020 at 22:42, Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hassan, I'm going to pick out a bit of info here... you stated that being able to use full bandwidth for SSB, but only the bandwidth of a single transmission on digital, which for this band is CW, (on off, not modulated) PSK31, PACTORIII, and RTTY, RTTY seems to have been added begrudgingly, but the important things of note are 1. WE ARE SECONDARY ON THIS BAND! , not primary, so we exist here only as long as we do things the way we won't get in trouble, we may get a slice of the band at some point, but we need to prove our ability to abide by the rules. 2, the band poster is pretty clear on the rules for this band,  it really is, 3. when you consider the types of use the primary users of the band have for it, (governmental) it makes sense that it would be one station transmitting at a time, period, if you transmit over someone else's transmission, you are causing interference. if you can't hear the station, it's unintentional, if you do it and you KNOW there's someone transmitting, it's INTENTIONAL INTERFERENCE, and against FCC regs anyway...like if you're hearing a pileup and everyone's running 50 watts, and you decide to heck with them, I'm going to make this contact if it kills me and slam them with a beam and full legal limit, you're breaking the intent of the rules. going back to the use, we are secondary, if you have 35 stations clogging up the channel, it would take much more time to tell each person QRT than the one or two that it would be.
>> >
>> > think of it this way, we are "BORROWING" the car... what rules should you follow when you borrow the car? the ones the person that let you use the car has, along with all local laws... don't get it dirty, don't wreck it, don't leave dirty diapers or used condoms in it don't do something that makes the person that has the car say I don't think I want to let you borrow the car again.
>> >
>> > the rules on this band are restrictive for a reason, just as their own internal rules are on the band. I'm not even entirely convinced that it's legal for us to use FT8 on this band AT ALL because they don't specify it, they mention CW, PSK31, PACTORIII (not AMTOR or any other similar modes) and begrudgingly RTTY
>> >
>> > Seannon, AG0NY
>> >
>> > Only one signal at a time is permitted on any channel." (From ARRL Band Poster)
>> > http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/Band%20Chart/Band%20Chart%20-%2011X17%20Color.pdf
>> >
>> > More on Center of Channel ( 1500 Hz) Requirement:
>> >
>> > "With your PSK31 software display configured to indicate audio frequencies, click your mouse cursor at the 1500 Hz mark (see below). With your radio in the USB mode, this marker indicates the center of the channel and it is the frequency on which you should be transmitting."
>> >
>> > There is no special exemption for FT8, the same center channel rule applies.
>> >
>> > In Summary from the ARRL:
>> >
>> > 1. Only one station may transmit at a time.
>> > 2. They must be at he CENTER of the allocated channel (1500 Hz)
>> > 3. NTIA has defined "on channel" as precisely 1.5 kHz below the assigned channel frequency.
>> >
>> > These are highly restrictive and have NOT been enforced. I posted my initial "Be Careful" message, because I was warned by someone familiar with the upcoming ARRL take-over of the FCC certified Monitoring Program, that once the new program had officially started : ENFORCEMENT WOULD BE FORTHCOMING and the enforcement will include referrals to the FCC for action.
>> >
>> > Unfortunately, the comment below reflects the attitude of many USA amateurs:
>> >
>> >  "If the FCC is that concerned about legitimate FT8 use within that 2.8 KHz BW, they need to clarify their own rules and rationale and make this clarification known.  Because right now, its as clear as mud.  "Field Day" for lawyers, so to speak."
>> >
>> > But the rules ARE clear here, there's a power level, compared to known quantity, they specifically give both CW center frequencies and USB frequencies as "Channels" they also give specific emissions types that are allowed, also, don't transmit when you can hear a station transmitting (only one station transmitting at any time) now, as for the rationale? that's not for us really, we have the rules to follow.
>> >
>> > As a result,  the 60m requirements for digital, (FT8 included), have been summarily ignored if not outright violated. I, myself did so, because I did not understand how one could reasonably operate a full SSB bandwidth and that was ok, but could not use the entire 2.8 kHz bandwidth for multiple narrow band FT8 transmissions. It makes NO sense. But....the rule is unforgiving and I have been told they are going to enforce it.
>> > It makes much more sense when you consider the government as primary, with us as secondary, it would take much more time to contact 20-30 stations to tell them to QRT than one or two governments would not try to stuff a ton of traffic in a single channel like this, they go for reliable communications over efficiency, unlike hams
>> >
>> >
>> > Only one signal at a time is permitted on any channel." (From ARRL Band Poster)
>> > http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/Band%20Chart/Band%20Chart%20-%2011X17%20Color.pdf
>> >
>> > More on Center of Channel ( 1500 Hz) Requirement:
>> >
>> > "With your PSK31 software display configured to indicate audio frequencies, click your mouse cursor at the 1500 Hz mark (see below). With your radio in the USB mode, this marker indicates the center of the channel and it is the frequency on which you should be transmitting."
>> >
>> > There is no special exemption for FT8, the same center channel rule applies.
>> >
>> > In Summary from the ARRL:
>> >
>> > 1. Only one station may transmit at a time.
>> > 2. They must be at he CENTER of the allocated channel (1500 Hz)
>> > 3. NTIA has defined "on channel" as precisely 1.5 kHz below the assigned channel frequency.
>> >
>> > These are highly restrictive and have NOT been enforced. I posted my initial "Be Careful" message, because I was warned by someone familiar with the upcoming ARRL take-over of the FCC certified Monitoring Program, that once the new program had officially started : ENFORCEMENT WOULD BE FORTHCOMING and the enforcement will include referrals to the FCC for action.
>> >
>> > Unfortunately, the comment below reflects the attitude of many USA amateurs:
>> >
>> >  "If the FCC is that concerned about legitimate FT8 use within that 2.8 KHz BW, they need to clarify their own rules and rationale and make this clarification known.  Because right now, its as clear as mud.  "Field Day" for lawyers, so to speak."
>> > The rules are pretty well spelled out, look at the chart above, there's channel info and conversions, , center channels, power requirements in relation to a specific antenna, and emissions modes (PSK31, PACTORIII not AMTOR or similar modes and RTTY, so it's questionable as to the legality of FT8 here anyway.
>> > As a result,  the 60m requirements for digital, (FT8 included), have been summarily ignored if not outright violated. I, myself did so, because I did not understand how one could reasonably operate a full SSB bandwidth and that was ok, but could not use the entire 2.8 kHz bandwidth for multiple narrow band FT8 transmissions. It makes NO sense. But....the rule is unforgiving and I have been told they are going to enforce it.
>> > It makes a lot more sense when you consider the PRIMARY on the band, and not us as amateurs that are secondary. governments would use this as close to a clear channel for simplicity's sake especially true in emergency communications, or wartime, so, if you hear someone transmitting, wait, don't transmit on top of them, it could be life or death. We as hams like to make the case for efficiency, the government for reliable communications
>> >
>> > I have advocated one thing and one thing only: Be Careful. I don't have horse this race. It would be a shame, however, if we lost this allocation or someone would get a QSL card from the FCC because they refused to exercise some caution in the matter.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I have advocated one thing and one thing only: Be Careful. I don't have horse this race. It would be a shame, however, if we lost this allocation or someone would get a QSL card from the FCC because they refused to exercise some caution in the matter.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 7:55 AM Hasan Schiers N0AN <hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> From the ARRL:
>> >> These are channel-center frequencies, not the ones you tune your radio to. The NTIA told the FCC that hams "must assure that their signal is transmitted on the channel-center frequency." This means the amateur signal must be centered within the 2.8-kHz-wide channel. The FCC has provided scant guidance beyond suggesting--in a footnote that follows the NTIA's advice--that amateurs tune 1.5 kHz below the center-channel frequencies to be "on channel." Amateurs need to be sure that the tuning display readout reflects transmitted (ie, carrier) frequency (most do). Consult your transceiver's manual if you're not sure.
>> >>
>> >> From the ARRL:
>> >> In addition, the FCC continues to require that all digital transmissions be centered on the channel-center frequencies, which the Report and Order defines as being 1.5 kHz above the suppressed carrier frequency of a transceiver operated in the Upper Sideband (USB) mode. This is typically the frequency shown on the frequency display.
>> >>
>> >> (Note that this does not say 1580, 1320, 700, ...it says 1.5 kHz) my comment, not ARRL's)
>> >>
>> >> http://www.arrl.org/60m-channel-allocation
>> >> "Operating at strict channel-center frequencies may come as a disappointment to many, but cooperating with the NTIA is key to expanded privileges in the future.
>> >> The channel center frequencies are":..snipped...60 meters
>> >>
>> >> "Only one signal at a time is permitted on any channel." (From ARRL Band Poster)
>> >> http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/Band%20Chart/Band%20Chart%20-%2011X17%20Color.pdf
>> >>
>> >> More on Center of Channel ( 1500 Hz) Requirement:
>> >>
>> >> "With your PSK31 software display configured to indicate audio frequencies, click your mouse cursor at the 1500 Hz mark (see below). With your radio in the USB mode, this marker indicates the center of the channel and it is the frequency on which you should be transmitting."
>> >>
>> >> There is no special exemption for FT8, the same center channel rule applies.
>> >>
>> >> In Summary from the ARRL:
>> >>
>> >> 1. Only one station may transmit at a time.
>> >> 2. They must be at he CENTER of the allocated channel (1500 Hz)
>> >> 3. NTIA has defined "on channel" as precisely 1.5 kHz below the assigned channel frequency.
>> >>
>> >> These are highly restrictive and have NOT been enforced. I posted my initial "Be Careful" message, because I was warned by someone familiar with the upcoming ARRL take-over of the FCC certified Monitoring Program, that once the new program had officially started : ENFORCEMENT WOULD BE FORTHCOMING and the enforcement will include referrals to the FCC for action.
>> >>
>> >> Unfortunately, the comment below reflects the attitude of many USA amateurs:
>> >>
>> >>  "If the FCC is that concerned about legitimate FT8 use within that 2.8 KHz BW, they need to clarify their own rules and rationale and make this clarification known.  Because right now, its as clear as mud.  "Field Day" for lawyers, so to speak."
>> >>
>> >> As a result,  the 60m requirements for digital, (FT8 included), have been summarily ignored if not outright violated. I, myself did so, because I did not understand how one could reasonably operate a full SSB bandwidth and that was ok, but could not use the entire 2.8 kHz bandwidth for multiple narrow band FT8 transmissions. It makes NO sense. But....the rule is unforgiving and I have been told they are going to enforce it.
>> >>
>> >> I have advocated one thing and one thing only: Be Careful. I don't have horse this race. It would be a shame, however, if we lost this allocation or someone would get a QSL card from the FCC because they refused to exercise some caution in the matter.
>> >>
>> >> 73, N0AN
>> >> Hasan
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 5:41 AM Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Also, it clearly states that no more than one station transmit at any given time thus also limiting to a conversational rather than a transactional contact type. (If you hear a conversation, don't transmit, if you hear a CQ, answer it unless you hear someone else answering)
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Seannon, ag0ny
>> >>>
>> >>> On Thu, Feb 20, 2020, 05:15 Nc8q-mesh@... <nc8q-mesh@...> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On 2/20/20 5:17 AM, Hasan Schiers N0AN wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Again, ARRL have *on multiple occasions* reported communications from
>> >>>> FCC Enforcement staff (and NTIA who are responsible for the "60 M
>> >>>> band") reminding US licensed amateurs that 97.303(h) requires using
>> >>>> *identical* audio frequency and carrier offsets so that the transmitted
>> >>>> signal is centered exactly on the middle of the assigned "Channel" -
>> >>>> not generating a random offset within a 2.7 KHz "band".
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> IMHO, this discussion of operating FT8 on 60 meters deserves its own thread.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>  From looking at the waterfall display (Wide Graph),
>> >>>> it seems to me that a FT8 Tx frequency of 1500 indicates signals from
>> >>>> 'dial frequency + 1500 Hz' to 'dial frequency + ~1548 Hz'.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The get TX signals centered on 1500 Hz,
>> >>>>  would it not require setting WSJTX to 1476 Hz ?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Chuck
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > “It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”
>> >
>> > Nikola Tesla
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
> --
> “It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”
>
> Nikola Tesla
>
>
>



--
“It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”

Nikola Tesla





locked Re: Interesting double-decode

Jim Brown
 

On 2/22/2020 12:58 PM, Jim Shorney wrote:
Noise blanker IMD can cause multiple decodes based on the frequency of repetition rate of your impulse noise.
YES!

73, Jim K9YC