Date   

locked Re: 60 meters: Operating guidelines for FT8

Jim Brown
 

On 2/20/2020 8:44 AM, Jim Cooper wrote:
TOTALLY ABSURD ! Technically impossible.
How can I tell if someone I can't hear is
transmitting on that channel ?
Good operating practice is to listen more than we transmit. If you're listening (decoding) during both periods, it's easy to tell where other signals are within the FT8/FT4,JT65/JT9 passband.

My standard practice is to do exactly that -- listen for a while before transmitting, see who's on the band, then call stations I want to work.

73, Jim K9YC


locked Re: New mode for MF/LF ?

Rob Sherwood
 

There was a mention of something like this, likely a JT9 derivative. From my standpoint the problem is an opening to EU or VK may only last 5 to 10 minutes, sometimes less. When I worked VK4YB three times, two of the three openings were rather short. If the cycle time was 5 minutes instead of 1 minute for JT9, even if I could decode 5 dB lower, it might not have resulted in a contact before the path disappeared. Rob, NC0B

-----Original Message-----
From: WSJTX@groups.io [mailto:WSJTX@groups.io] On Behalf Of Trevor Smithers
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2020 10:34 AM
To: WSJTX@groups.io
Cc: tsmithers@...
Subject: [WSJTX] New mode for MF/LF ?

Back last August/September I seem to remember seeing a post about a new WSJT mode in the early stages of development by K1JT and K9AN designed specifically for 136kHz, 472KHz and 160. It was to be based on JT65 but far more sensitive.

Not having seen anything since so wondering if I imagined it.

Trevor G0KTN


locked Re: 60 meters: Operating guidelines for FT8

Hasan Schiers N0AN
 

Al, you must have missed this from the same thread you are posting to:

This is from a Government Operator of one of the stations on 60 meters that has to put up with the current abuse of the 60m segment by US Amateurs:

"Should 60m activity continue as it has been over the last
few years, I suspect that we will be under scrutiny and asked to justify continued use of 60 meters.  I know this from personal experience as I operate one of those government stations on 60 meters on a recurring basis. Beware."
Best regards,
Gary, K7EK

I would hardly say this constitutes: "nobody is paying attention"

Do  you think these government services have not noticed and are not taking note, of our abuse of the grant,  as K7EK indicates above?

So our operational philosophy is "Do what we like,even though we know we are likely causing harmful interference, so long as none of us get caught", and on top of that, we agreed to abide by the conditions of the frequency grant and and then break our word and willfully violate the terms as if that means nothing?

I sure hope you were making some sort of joke, because abusing our recently granted privileges in hopes of having them expanded in the future seems like a counterproductive approach.  ☺
N0AN, Hasan


On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 12:19 PM Al <almay8@...> wrote:

Shsssssh nobody is pay any attention to this. There have been no complaints so it is not causing any interference or you would have heard about it by now the less said the better.

 

True Adventure Requires An Uncertain Outcome”

 

From: Hasan Schiers N0AN
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2020 9:56 AM
To: WSJTX@groups.io Group Moderators
Subject: Re: [WSJTX] 60 meters: Operating guidelines for FT8

 

Take that up with the ARRL and what it actually means. If the freq is in use, you must desist. If you hear someone in qso on 1500 Hz already, you are not supposed to transmit. In any case, we are not to transmit at all , away from 1500 Hz. The rule is clear as  a bell. It's a dumb rule. But it's clear.

 

Read the items I quoted from the ARRL, NTIA and what was shared with the FCC about our digital operations on 60 meters. I didn't make it up and the CFR is NO HELP AT ALL, if the FCC and NTIA have issued interpretive guidelines, as well as the ARRL being asked to get Amateurs to comply.

 

Has the FCC been good with communications about this? No

Has the ARRL been well out in the open so we don't have to read silly stuff in fine print? No.

Has there been any enforcement of the interpretive guidelines or "fine print". No.

 

What I have been told, is that "It's coming"  (enforcement).

 

I shared it, do with it what you like, but don't say later, "No one every told us".

They did. They did a lousy job of it. But it's there.


Hasan

 

 

On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 10:44 AM Jim Cooper <JTalert@...> wrote:

On 20 Feb 2020 at 7:54, Hasan Schiers N0AN wrote:

> 1. Only one station may transmit at a time.

TOTALLY ABSURD !   Technically impossible.

How can I tell if someone I can't hear is
transmitting on that channel ?


 



locked Re: 60 meters: Operating guidelines for FT8

Al <almay8@...>
 

Shsssssh nobody is pay any attention to this. There have been no complaints so it is not causing any interference or you would have heard about it by now the less said the better.

 

True Adventure Requires An Uncertain Outcome”

 

From: Hasan Schiers N0AN
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2020 9:56 AM
To: WSJTX@groups.io Group Moderators
Subject: Re: [WSJTX] 60 meters: Operating guidelines for FT8

 

Take that up with the ARRL and what it actually means. If the freq is in use, you must desist. If you hear someone in qso on 1500 Hz already, you are not supposed to transmit. In any case, we are not to transmit at all , away from 1500 Hz. The rule is clear as  a bell. It's a dumb rule. But it's clear.

 

Read the items I quoted from the ARRL, NTIA and what was shared with the FCC about our digital operations on 60 meters. I didn't make it up and the CFR is NO HELP AT ALL, if the FCC and NTIA have issued interpretive guidelines, as well as the ARRL being asked to get Amateurs to comply.

 

Has the FCC been good with communications about this? No

Has the ARRL been well out in the open so we don't have to read silly stuff in fine print? No.

Has there been any enforcement of the interpretive guidelines or "fine print". No.

 

What I have been told, is that "It's coming"  (enforcement).

 

I shared it, do with it what you like, but don't say later, "No one every told us".

They did. They did a lousy job of it. But it's there.


Hasan

 

 

On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 10:44 AM Jim Cooper <JTalert@...> wrote:

On 20 Feb 2020 at 7:54, Hasan Schiers N0AN wrote:

> 1. Only one station may transmit at a time.

TOTALLY ABSURD !   Technically impossible.

How can I tell if someone I can't hear is
transmitting on that channel ?


 


locked Re: Computer recommendations

Eric Pierce
 

 
I agree 100% with George. I am using one of these USB hubs on my ASUS (I5/8GB/1TB) office laptop, works great (using a different tower for WSJT-X, though). 
 
Also have a 22 inch monitor, full size keyboard and mouse plugged into the laptop so it works like a desktop, but I can disconnect it and take it with me for meetings, travel , etc. You can buy laptops with the power of many desktops, thy sky is the limit. Might make an easier sell to the XYL : - )
 
BTW, I got WSJT-X working with my new IC-7300 last week of Dec, and have made 675 FT4/8 contacts. LOTS of fun! Have 60 DX entities confirmed on LOTW, and some eAwards on QRZ and eQSL (including eWAC). Also a lot of nice eQSL cards from all over. 

THANKS to Joe WSJT and ALL the other contributors that have made these new modes possible, and the hams that post useful information and videos helping others to get going. I have gotten a LOT of help from this group. I have been "reading the mail" for months. 

My next step is to get things in place to try and build WSJT-X from source, and have a look inside, see https://physics.princeton.edu/pulsar/k1jt/wsjtx
In my early career I actually did real time programming in PDP-11 assembler and FORTRAN, but my programming skills are VERY dated and limited. 

One other thing, I know that some people have philosophical differences with some of the different logging / award sites and their operators, but why not submit your logs to all of them? It is free for accounts, and helps other hams collect awards (LOTW a bit of work to set up, but worth it, IMHO). I use https://www.logger32.net/ to auto log from WSJT-X via UDP and then use with https://www.n2amg.com/software/l32-logsync/ to upload each QSO in almost real time to https://lotw.arrl.org/ , www.eQSL.cc  , https://clublog.org/ and http://hrdlog.net/ .  I upload manually to https://www.qrz.com/ at least weekly. So IMHO it is VERY little effort to help others get fun out of the hobby. I find the new hams I have been mentoring really like the eAwards, really motivates them. Hope this does not start a flame war, maybe good topic for discussion on another thread  : - )
 
73
 
Eric Pierce


locked Re: frequencies for 160 - 6m?

Frank Donovan
 

The "Government" will be QRV on 5330.5 kHz operating simplex
during the 2020 Armed Forces Day Crossband Test

NSS will be operated by the Naval Academy Radio Club and the
Potomac Valley Radio Club simultaneously on 80, 60, 40, 30, 20 and
17 meter CW and SSB from 1300Z Saturday May 9 to 0459Z Sunday
May 10.

Sorry, no digital activity is planned...

73
Frank
W3LPL


From: "Bob Lewis" <aa4pb@...>
To: WSJTX@groups.io
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2020 5:06:19 PM
Subject: Re: [WSJTX] frequencies for 160 - 6m?

The signal is not limited to one tone (SSB is certainly more than one tone). The requirement is that whatever bandwidth the signal occupies MUST be centered on the assigned channel. That is standard government and military operating practice which was originally intended for the use of voice, CW, and RTTY signals. Personally, it doesn't make a lot of common sense for narrow modes like FT8 but the government doesn't seem to want to give on the issue. However, one point perhaps is that if they permit the channel to be filled with many individual signals from individual stations spread out over the channel then then the government has a much bigger problem trying to clear the channel for their use.

-----Original Message-----
From: WSJTX@groups.io [mailto:WSJTX@groups.io] On Behalf Of K8BL BOB LIDDY
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2020 11:15 AM
To: WSJTX@groups.io
Subject: Re: [WSJTX] frequencies for 160 - 6m?

N0AN,

The Official Observer Program used to do an adequate job of informing Amateurs of proper Band usage. Where are they these days?

As I said before, FT8 uses 8-FSK Modulation with 6.25 Hz spacing. It is
 not one discreet tone. Therefore, it would be impossible
 to ONLY use one tone at 1500 Hz to exchange information
 using FT8 on 60M or any other Band.

GL/73,       Bob  K8BL/5









On Thursday, February 20, 2020, 03:55:49 AM CST, Hasan Schiers N0AN <hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:





Bob,
Of course you are seeing them all over the place, and that is exactly what we are being warned about. I used to approach things exactly as you have and was subsequently told that these  "convenient" self-interpretations are going to result in notice of violations when the new monitoring program starts.

I will look for the precise wording I was sent a few weeks ago, and anyone who wants to can argue it out with the ARRL  Keep in mind  that the Monitoring program will be run by the ARRL, and they will be sending out notices and making referrals to the FCC for enforcement.

73, N0AN

Hasan

On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 10:09 PM K8BL BOB LIDDY <k8bl@...> wrote:
> FT8 uses 8-FSK Modulation with 6.25 Hz spacing. It is not one discreet
> tone. Therefore, it would be impossible to ONLY use one tone at 1500
> Hz to exchange information using FT8 on 60M or any other Band.
>
> I'm seeing plenty of QSOs on 60M tonight from all across NA and EU. My
> 10W to an end-fed LW at 20Ft works out quite well.
>
> GL/73,   Bob  K8BL
>
> On Wednesday, February 19, 2020, 09:14:13 PM CST, Herb Blue <wb8asi@...> wrote:
>
> I will practice my whistle to stay on 1500.
>
>>  On February 19, 2020 at 10:04 PM Hasan Schiers N0AN <hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>>  According to the precise definition in the rules the entire 2800 Hz spectrum is NOT AVAILABLE!
>>  
>>
>>
>>  Only one frequency is permitted and that is 1500 Hz. No moving around, no spreading out, period. Applies only to USA stations.
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>>  That is exactly what I was warned about. The rule is clear and it is
>>equally clear it was not being enforced. It is going to be enforced, that is what I was told.
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>>  Take it for what it's worth,  I have no investment either way.
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>>  73, N0AN
>>
>>  
>>
>>  Hasan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  
>>  On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 6:39 PM Bruce N7XGR < n7xgr1@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  Then what we all need to do is start doing this,
>>>
>>>  
>>>http://www.openculture.com/2013/03/speaking_in_whistles_the_whistled_
>>>language_of_oaxaca_mexico.html
>>>
>>>  These people communicate by whistling tones that is understood by the receiver.
>>>
>>>  This seems to be the same as the FT8 tones.  What is the difference between a whistled tone and a FT8 tone?
>>>
>>>  We can whistle tones anywhere in the 2800 Hz USB transmit bandwidth.
>>>
>>>  What about other countries?  Will the FCC enforce this to countries outside of the US boarder?
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>
>>>  Bruce  N7XGR
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>  On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 7:09 PM Hasan Schiers N0AN < hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>  
>>>>  Re: 60m
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Be very careful about 60m in the USA. The spread of FT8 activity away from 1500 Hz may well be in violation of FCC rules. I received a warning that enforcement of this rule was going to start shortly with the onset of the new ARRL Monitoring program, wherein violations will be forwarded to the FCcCfor enforcement.
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  I'd be careful.
>>>>
>>>>  73, N0AN
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Hasan
>
>>>>  
>>>>  On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 4:26 PM K8BL BOB LIDDY < k8bl@...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>  As long as we're discussing the Frequency List, I noticed that
>>>>>doing  the Reset does not provide the 60M Frequency for FT8.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've inserted 5.357 MHz in my List. There is a fair bit of
>>>>> activity there and many DX Stations to work nightly. It's easy to find a clear spot.
>>>>>
>>>>> 73,    Bob  K8BL
>  
>
>
>  
>
>






locked Re: frequencies for 160 - 6m?

Frank Donovan
 

The "Government" will be QRV on 5330.5 kHz operating simplex
during the 2020 Armed Forces Day Crossband Test

NSS will be operated by the Naval Academy Radio Club and the
Potomac Valley Radio Club simultaneously on 80, 60, 40, 30, 20 and
17 meter CW and SSB from 1300Z Saturday May 9 to 0459Z Sunday
May 10.

Sorry, no digital activity is planned...

73
Frank
W3LPL


From: "Bob Lewis" <aa4pb@...>
To: WSJTX@groups.io
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2020 5:06:19 PM
Subject: Re: [WSJTX] frequencies for 160 - 6m?

The signal is not limited to one tone (SSB is certainly more than one tone). The requirement is that whatever bandwidth the signal occupies MUST be centered on the assigned channel. That is standard government and military operating practice which was originally intended for the use of voice, CW, and RTTY signals. Personally, it doesn't make a lot of common sense for narrow modes like FT8 but the government doesn't seem to want to give on the issue. However, one point perhaps is that if they permit the channel to be filled with many individual signals from individual stations spread out over the channel then then the government has a much bigger problem trying to clear the channel for their use.

-----Original Message-----
From: WSJTX@groups.io [mailto:WSJTX@groups.io] On Behalf Of K8BL BOB LIDDY
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2020 11:15 AM
To: WSJTX@groups.io
Subject: Re: [WSJTX] frequencies for 160 - 6m?

N0AN,

The Official Observer Program used to do an adequate job of informing Amateurs of proper Band usage. Where are they these days?

As I said before, FT8 uses 8-FSK Modulation with 6.25 Hz spacing. It is
 not one discreet tone. Therefore, it would be impossible
 to ONLY use one tone at 1500 Hz to exchange information
 using FT8 on 60M or any other Band.

GL/73,       Bob  K8BL/5









On Thursday, February 20, 2020, 03:55:49 AM CST, Hasan Schiers N0AN <hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:





Bob,
Of course you are seeing them all over the place, and that is exactly what we are being warned about. I used to approach things exactly as you have and was subsequently told that these  "convenient" self-interpretations are going to result in notice of violations when the new monitoring program starts.

I will look for the precise wording I was sent a few weeks ago, and anyone who wants to can argue it out with the ARRL  Keep in mind  that the Monitoring program will be run by the ARRL, and they will be sending out notices and making referrals to the FCC for enforcement.

73, N0AN

Hasan

On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 10:09 PM K8BL BOB LIDDY <k8bl@...> wrote:
> FT8 uses 8-FSK Modulation with 6.25 Hz spacing. It is not one discreet
> tone. Therefore, it would be impossible to ONLY use one tone at 1500
> Hz to exchange information using FT8 on 60M or any other Band.
>
> I'm seeing plenty of QSOs on 60M tonight from all across NA and EU. My
> 10W to an end-fed LW at 20Ft works out quite well.
>
> GL/73,   Bob  K8BL
>
> On Wednesday, February 19, 2020, 09:14:13 PM CST, Herb Blue <wb8asi@...> wrote:
>
> I will practice my whistle to stay on 1500.
>
>>  On February 19, 2020 at 10:04 PM Hasan Schiers N0AN <hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>>  According to the precise definition in the rules the entire 2800 Hz spectrum is NOT AVAILABLE!
>>  
>>
>>
>>  Only one frequency is permitted and that is 1500 Hz. No moving around, no spreading out, period. Applies only to USA stations.
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>>  That is exactly what I was warned about. The rule is clear and it is
>>equally clear it was not being enforced. It is going to be enforced, that is what I was told.
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>>  Take it for what it's worth,  I have no investment either way.
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>>  73, N0AN
>>
>>  
>>
>>  Hasan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  
>>  On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 6:39 PM Bruce N7XGR < n7xgr1@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  Then what we all need to do is start doing this,
>>>
>>>  
>>>http://www.openculture.com/2013/03/speaking_in_whistles_the_whistled_
>>>language_of_oaxaca_mexico.html
>>>
>>>  These people communicate by whistling tones that is understood by the receiver.
>>>
>>>  This seems to be the same as the FT8 tones.  What is the difference between a whistled tone and a FT8 tone?
>>>
>>>  We can whistle tones anywhere in the 2800 Hz USB transmit bandwidth.
>>>
>>>  What about other countries?  Will the FCC enforce this to countries outside of the US boarder?
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>
>>>  Bruce  N7XGR
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>  On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 7:09 PM Hasan Schiers N0AN < hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>  
>>>>  Re: 60m
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Be very careful about 60m in the USA. The spread of FT8 activity away from 1500 Hz may well be in violation of FCC rules. I received a warning that enforcement of this rule was going to start shortly with the onset of the new ARRL Monitoring program, wherein violations will be forwarded to the FCcCfor enforcement.
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  I'd be careful.
>>>>
>>>>  73, N0AN
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Hasan
>
>>>>  
>>>>  On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 4:26 PM K8BL BOB LIDDY < k8bl@...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>  As long as we're discussing the Frequency List, I noticed that
>>>>>doing  the Reset does not provide the 60M Frequency for FT8.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've inserted 5.357 MHz in my List. There is a fair bit of
>>>>> activity there and many DX Stations to work nightly. It's easy to find a clear spot.
>>>>>
>>>>> 73,    Bob  K8BL
>  
>
>
>  
>
>






locked Strange Logs/Contacts

Tom Turk
 

I occasionally get a strange message in the RX Frequency window like this: 

165945 -18 -1.2 1871 ~  NY4P LA8UFY/R R FM94                  a2


If I double-click on it then it brings up the logging window.  Most of them that I recall have what looks like a call sign with /R.  I was just curious if someone could tell me what these are.


locked Re: 60 meters: Operating guidelines for FT8

Bruce N7XGR
 

Well Jim someone would say this, you must prearrange with the other station
to make contact at a certain time to make the exchange and be coordinated
with other stations wanting to use this 1500 Hz point on the waterfall.
Well err, uhm I just said that, well dang-it it anyway!!!

Bruce  N7XGR


On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 11:44 AM Jim Cooper <JTalert@...> wrote:
On 20 Feb 2020 at 7:54, Hasan Schiers N0AN wrote:

> 1. Only one station may transmit at a time.

TOTALLY ABSURD !   Technically impossible.

How can I tell if someone I can't hear is
transmitting on that channel ?




locked Re: 60 meters: Operating guidelines for FT8

Hasan Schiers N0AN
 

Take that up with the ARRL and what it actually means. If the freq is in use, you must desist. If you hear someone in qso on 1500 Hz already, you are not supposed to transmit. In any case, we are not to transmit at all , away from 1500 Hz. The rule is clear as  a bell. It's a dumb rule. But it's clear.

Read the items I quoted from the ARRL, NTIA and what was shared with the FCC about our digital operations on 60 meters. I didn't make it up and the CFR is NO HELP AT ALL, if the FCC and NTIA have issued interpretive guidelines, as well as the ARRL being asked to get Amateurs to comply.

Has the FCC been good with communications about this? No
Has the ARRL been well out in the open so we don't have to read silly stuff in fine print? No.
Has there been any enforcement of the interpretive guidelines or "fine print". No.

What I have been told, is that "It's coming"  (enforcement).

I shared it, do with it what you like, but don't say later, "No one every told us".
They did. They did a lousy job of it. But it's there.

Hasan


On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 10:44 AM Jim Cooper <JTalert@...> wrote:
On 20 Feb 2020 at 7:54, Hasan Schiers N0AN wrote:

> 1. Only one station may transmit at a time.

TOTALLY ABSURD !   Technically impossible.

How can I tell if someone I can't hear is
transmitting on that channel ?




locked Re: frequencies for 160 - 6m?

Hasan Schiers N0AN
 

Bob,


The OO program is being reconstituted into what the ARRL and FCC have agreed upon..(Volunteer Monitoring) I have no idea what they (the OOs)  had been doing prior to this agreement they seem invisible.

Look at page 73 of this month's QST. Specifically, last two paragraphs. This is what is replacing the OO program.

Read the other thread where I provided the citations from the ARRL, which is the body that is goinng to be issuing referrals to the FCC for misconduct.

I'm not saying anything other than what the ARRL has published. They are going to be providing the proof of misconduct to the FCC.

Now if we know what the ARRL's position is w/r to single frequency operation of FT8/Digital on 60m (1500 Hz) and what does and does not consist  of misconduct,  and we further know they are going to be in charge of gathering evidence for referral to the FCC, it would pay us to heed the warning.

From the ARRL:
"These are channel-center frequencies, not the ones you tune your radio to. The NTIA told the FCC that hams "must assure that their signal is transmitted on the channel-center frequency." This means the amateur signal must be centered within the 2.8-kHz-wide channel. The FCC has provided scant guidance beyond suggesting--in a footnote that follows the NTIA's advice--that amateurs tune 1.5 kHz below the center-channel frequencies to be "on channel." Amateurs need to be sure that the tuning display readout reflects transmitted (ie, carrier) frequency (most do). Consult your transceiver's manual if you're not sure."

(My underline, my bold)

They specifically state 1.5 kHz below the center channel frequencies, which puts us on 5357 USB 1500 Hz.  not 1700 Hz, not 700 Hz, not 1350 Hz

http://www.arrl.org/60m-channel-allocation
"Operating at strict channel-center frequencies may come as a disappointment to many, but cooperating with the NTIA is key to expanded privileges in the future.
The channel center frequencies are":..snipped

...and for further clarity of what "channel-center frequencies" means:
The FCC has provided scant guidance beyond suggesting--in a footnote that follows the NTIA's advice--that amateurs tune 1.5 kHz below the center-channel frequencies to be "on channel."

The immediate above is the linchpin of the interpretive guidance. Read it VERY carefully. On channel means on frequency, not 1500 Hz, plus or minus whatever I want. It means and CLEARLY says, 1.5 kHz is on channel....everything else is ...well....off channel and violating the rules.

Now you can cite CFRs all you like, the interpretive guidance is quite clear...and it is being ignored on 60m by US Licensed Amateurs. My only purpose in posting any of this was to be careful about 60 meters. Things are about to change and we have  been doing with impunity looks like it is about to change.

The people doing the new monitoring, the NTIA and the FCC are all on the same page with this. I'd love to see it change. The rules seem unreasonable and at times unfathomable.

All I've said all along is to be careful on 60m.

No one reading all this information can come to the conclusion that it's safe to transmit all over the 60m segment where digital is channelized (5357, 1500 Hz USB), on anywhere other than 1500 Hz, unless the rules and/or the interpretive guidance change. There is no band. There is no spectrum. There is a single assigned frequency for digital, period. Operating FT8 on 60m anywhere other than 5357 USB , 1500 Hz is clearly against the existing rules and interpretive guidelines.

I don't like it. It seems unreasonable. In fact, it seems downright un-doable. But, that's the government for ya. It would be nice if ARRL got off their duff and lobbied for some reasonable rules or at least provided the rationale for why this appears so ridiculously restrictive.

I've provided all the info that I can about this. I'm done. Do what ya like, won't bother me one way or the other. Just don't whine if citations follow.

73, N0AN


On Thu, Feb 20, 2020, 10:14 AM K8BL BOB LIDDY <k8bl@...> wrote:
N0AN,

The Official Observer Program used to do an adequate job of informing
Amateurs of proper Band usage. Where are they these days?

As I said before, FT8 uses 8-FSK Modulation with 6.25 Hz spacing. It is
 not one discreet tone. Therefore, it would be impossible
 to ONLY use one tone at 1500 Hz to exchange information
 using FT8 on 60M or any other Band. 

GL/73,       Bob  K8BL/5









On Thursday, February 20, 2020, 03:55:49 AM CST, Hasan Schiers N0AN <hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:





Bob, 
Of course you are seeing them all over the place, and that is exactly what we are being warned about. I used to approach things exactly as you have and was subsequently told that these  "convenient" self-interpretations are going to result in notice of violations when the new monitoring program starts.

I will look for the precise wording I was sent a few weeks ago, and anyone who wants to can argue it out with the ARRL  Keep in mind  that the Monitoring program will be run by the ARRL, and they will be sending out notices and making referrals to the FCC for enforcement. 

73, N0AN

Hasan

On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 10:09 PM K8BL BOB LIDDY <k8bl@...> wrote:
> FT8 uses 8-FSK Modulation with 6.25 Hz spacing. It is
> not one discreet tone. Therefore, it would be impossible
> to ONLY use one tone at 1500 Hz to exchange information
> using FT8 on 60M or any other Band.
>
> I'm seeing plenty of QSOs on 60M tonight from all across
> NA and EU. My 10W to an end-fed LW at 20Ft works out
> quite well.
>
> GL/73,   Bob  K8BL
>
> On Wednesday, February 19, 2020, 09:14:13 PM CST, Herb Blue <wb8asi@...> wrote:
>
> I will practice my whistle to stay on 1500. 
>
>>  On February 19, 2020 at 10:04 PM Hasan Schiers N0AN <hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>>  According to the precise definition in the rules the entire 2800 Hz spectrum is NOT AVAILABLE!
>>  
>>
>>
>>  Only one frequency is permitted and that is 1500 Hz. No moving around, no spreading out, period. Applies only to USA stations.
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>>  That is exactly what I was warned about. The rule is clear and it is equally clear it was not being enforced. It is going to be enforced, that is what I was told. 
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>>  Take it for what it's worth,  I have no investment either way.
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>>  73, N0AN 
>>
>>  
>>
>>  Hasan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  
>>  On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 6:39 PM Bruce N7XGR < n7xgr1@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  Then what we all need to do is start doing this,
>>>
>>>  http://www.openculture.com/2013/03/speaking_in_whistles_the_whistled_language_of_oaxaca_mexico.html
>>>
>>>  These people communicate by whistling tones that is understood by the receiver.
>>>
>>>  This seems to be the same as the FT8 tones.  What is the difference between a whistled tone and a FT8 tone?
>>>
>>>  We can whistle tones anywhere in the 2800 Hz USB transmit bandwidth.
>>>
>>>  What about other countries?  Will the FCC enforce this to countries outside of the US boarder?
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>
>>>  Bruce  N7XGR
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>  On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 7:09 PM Hasan Schiers N0AN < hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>  
>>>>  Re: 60m
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Be very careful about 60m in the USA. The spread of FT8 activity away from 1500 Hz may well be in violation of FCC rules. I received a warning that enforcement of this rule was going to start shortly with the onset of the new ARRL Monitoring program, wherein violations will be forwarded to the FCcCfor enforcement.
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  I'd be careful.
>>>>
>>>>  73, N0AN
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Hasan
>
>>>>  
>>>>  On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 4:26 PM K8BL BOB LIDDY < k8bl@...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>  As long as we're discussing the Frequency List, I noticed that doing
>>>>> the Reset does not provide the 60M Frequency for FT8.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've inserted 5.357 MHz in my List. There is a fair bit of activity there
>>>>> and many DX Stations to work nightly. It's easy to find a clear spot.
>>>>>
>>>>> 73,    Bob  K8BL
>  
>
>
>  
>
>



locked New mode for MF/LF ?

Trevor Smithers
 

Back last August/September I seem to remember seeing a post about a new
WSJT mode in the early stages of development by K1JT and K9AN designed
specifically for 136kHz, 472KHz and 160. It was to be based on JT65 but
far more sensitive.

Not having seen anything since so wondering if I imagined it.

Trevor G0KTN


locked Re: frequencies for 160 - 6m?

Bob Lewis
 

The signal is not limited to one tone (SSB is certainly more than one tone). The requirement is that whatever bandwidth the signal occupies MUST be centered on the assigned channel. That is standard government and military operating practice which was originally intended for the use of voice, CW, and RTTY signals. Personally, it doesn't make a lot of common sense for narrow modes like FT8 but the government doesn't seem to want to give on the issue. However, one point perhaps is that if they permit the channel to be filled with many individual signals from individual stations spread out over the channel then then the government has a much bigger problem trying to clear the channel for their use.

-----Original Message-----
From: WSJTX@groups.io [mailto:WSJTX@groups.io] On Behalf Of K8BL BOB LIDDY
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2020 11:15 AM
To: WSJTX@groups.io
Subject: Re: [WSJTX] frequencies for 160 - 6m?

N0AN,

The Official Observer Program used to do an adequate job of informing Amateurs of proper Band usage. Where are they these days?

As I said before, FT8 uses 8-FSK Modulation with 6.25 Hz spacing. It is
not one discreet tone. Therefore, it would be impossible
to ONLY use one tone at 1500 Hz to exchange information
using FT8 on 60M or any other Band.

GL/73, Bob K8BL/5









On Thursday, February 20, 2020, 03:55:49 AM CST, Hasan Schiers N0AN <hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:





Bob,
Of course you are seeing them all over the place, and that is exactly what we are being warned about. I used to approach things exactly as you have and was subsequently told that these "convenient" self-interpretations are going to result in notice of violations when the new monitoring program starts.

I will look for the precise wording I was sent a few weeks ago, and anyone who wants to can argue it out with the ARRL Keep in mind that the Monitoring program will be run by the ARRL, and they will be sending out notices and making referrals to the FCC for enforcement.

73, N0AN

Hasan

On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 10:09 PM K8BL BOB LIDDY <k8bl@...> wrote:
FT8 uses 8-FSK Modulation with 6.25 Hz spacing. It is not one discreet
tone. Therefore, it would be impossible to ONLY use one tone at 1500
Hz to exchange information using FT8 on 60M or any other Band.

I'm seeing plenty of QSOs on 60M tonight from all across NA and EU. My
10W to an end-fed LW at 20Ft works out quite well.

GL/73, Bob K8BL

On Wednesday, February 19, 2020, 09:14:13 PM CST, Herb Blue <wb8asi@...> wrote:

I will practice my whistle to stay on 1500.

On February 19, 2020 at 10:04 PM Hasan Schiers N0AN <hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:


According to the precise definition in the rules the entire 2800 Hz spectrum is NOT AVAILABLE!



Only one frequency is permitted and that is 1500 Hz. No moving around, no spreading out, period. Applies only to USA stations.




That is exactly what I was warned about. The rule is clear and it is
equally clear it was not being enforced. It is going to be enforced, that is what I was told.




Take it for what it's worth, I have no investment either way.




73, N0AN



Hasan





On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 6:39 PM Bruce N7XGR < n7xgr1@...> wrote:




Then what we all need to do is start doing this,


http://www.openculture.com/2013/03/speaking_in_whistles_the_whistled_
language_of_oaxaca_mexico.html

These people communicate by whistling tones that is understood by the receiver.

This seems to be the same as the FT8 tones. What is the difference between a whistled tone and a FT8 tone?

We can whistle tones anywhere in the 2800 Hz USB transmit bandwidth.

What about other countries? Will the FCC enforce this to countries outside of the US boarder?




Bruce N7XGR





On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 7:09 PM Hasan Schiers N0AN < hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:



Re: 60m



Be very careful about 60m in the USA. The spread of FT8 activity away from 1500 Hz may well be in violation of FCC rules. I received a warning that enforcement of this rule was going to start shortly with the onset of the new ARRL Monitoring program, wherein violations will be forwarded to the FCcCfor enforcement.




I'd be careful.

73, N0AN


Hasan

On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 4:26 PM K8BL BOB LIDDY < k8bl@...> wrote:


As long as we're discussing the Frequency List, I noticed that
doing the Reset does not provide the 60M Frequency for FT8.

I've inserted 5.357 MHz in my List. There is a fair bit of
activity there and many DX Stations to work nightly. It's easy to find a clear spot.

73, Bob K8BL





locked Re: 60 meters: Operating guidelines for FT8

Jim Cooper
 

On 20 Feb 2020 at 7:54, Hasan Schiers N0AN wrote:

1. Only one station may transmit at a time.
TOTALLY ABSURD ! Technically impossible.

How can I tell if someone I can't hear is
transmitting on that channel ?


locked Re: Computer recommendations

George VE3YV <ve3yv@...>
 

Regarding number of USB ports:  an alternative to searching for multi-USB ported systems, I use a 7-port powered USB port extender on a tablet form-factor, which gives enough USB ports for USB backup drive, mouse, keyboard, rig interfaces plus extender cables for smartphone and a female socket for misc: USB stick, headset dongle, or whatever else pops up.  Not expensive and frees you to consider a wider choice of platforms. 

 

73,  George VE3YV / K8HI

 


locked Re: IC-7300 and v2. 01

ROGER HOOTEN
 

Fred,
I could use that help from the guide too.  Where do I find that?
73
W6UZ


locked Re: frequencies for 160 - 6m?

K8BL BOB LIDDY <k8bl@...>
 

Bruce,

Well done! Your research and explanation makes perfect
sense when one understands exactly how FT8 works.

I'll plan to stay above 1500 Hz on FT8 with my VFO set
at 5.357 MHz in the future.

TNX/73,     Bob  K8BL/5

On Thursday, February 20, 2020, 12:13:08 AM CST, Bruce N7XGR <n7xgr1@...> wrote:





This is from, 47 CFR Part 97 - September 23 2014-2

(h) 60 m band: (1) In the 5330.5-5406.4 kHz band (60 m band), amateur stations may transmit only on the five center frequencies specified in the
table below. In order to meet this requirement, control operators of stations transmitting phone, data, and RTTY emissions (emission designators
2K80J3E, 2K80J2D, and 60H0J2B, respectively) may set the carrier frequency 1.5 kHz below the center frequency as specified in the table below. For
CW emissions (emission designator 150HA1A), the carrier frequency is set to the center frequency. Amateur operators shall ensure that their emissions
do not occupy more than 2.8 kHz centered on each of these center frequencies.

It only states that CW is to be set at the 1.5 KHz center frequency point.
The last sentence is the boundary limit for phone, data and RTTY emissions.
Notice what is missing in the sentence for CW emissions, it does not include
data and RTTY modes.
If the FCC wanted to specify that the transmission of CW, data and RTTY they would have
worded it that these will be on the channel center frequency like in this case 5358.5 KHz.
Take 2.8 KHz divide by 2 is 1.4 KHz.  Center channel is 5358.5, subtract 1.4 KHz, is 5357.1,
add 1.4 gives you 5359.9. The limits are 5357.1 to 5359.9.  Notice the 2.8 KHz centered,
that to me is the reference point for the limits.  We are staying within these limits.
I do believe by now that the FCC would have sent notice and the ARRL will then issue
a bulletin informing all US Hams to cease FT8 activity in 60 meters especially on channel 3 (5357 KHz)
unless the transmission is on 5358.5 KHz or 1.5 KHz on the waterfall when the VFO is on 5357 KHz.

Bruce  N7XGR


On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 10:14 PM Herb Blue <WB8ASI@...> wrote:
  
  
  I will practice my whistle to stay on 1500.

  On February 19, 2020 at 10:04 PM Hasan Schiers N0AN <hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:


  According to the precise definition in the rules the entire 2800 Hz spectrum is NOT AVAILABLE!
  


  Only one frequency is permitted and that is 1500 Hz. No moving around, no spreading out, period. Applies only to USA stations.

  


  That is exactly what I was warned about. The rule is clear and it is equally clear it was not being enforced. It is going to be enforced, that is what I was told. 

  


  Take it for what it's worth,  I have no investment either way.

  


  73, N0AN 

  

  Hasan




  
  On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 6:39 PM Bruce N7XGR < n7xgr1@...> wrote:


  
  
  Then what we all need to do is start doing this,

  http://www.openculture.com/2013/03/speaking_in_whistles_the_whistled_language_of_oaxaca_mexico.html

  These people communicate by whistling tones that is understood by the receiver.

  This seems to be the same as the FT8 tones.  What is the difference between a whistled tone and a FT8 tone?

  We can whistle tones anywhere in the 2800 Hz USB transmit bandwidth.

  What about other countries?  Will the FCC enforce this to countries outside of the US boarder?

  


  Bruce  N7XGR




  
  On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 7:09 PM Hasan Schiers N0AN < hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:


  
  Re: 60m
  


  Be very careful about 60m in the USA. The spread of FT8 activity away from 1500 Hz may well be in violation of FCC rules. I received a warning that enforcement of this rule was going to start shortly with the onset of the new ARRL Monitoring program, wherein violations will be forwarded to the FCcCfor enforcement.

  


  I'd be careful.

  73, N0AN


  Hasan




  
  On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 4:26 PM K8BL BOB LIDDY < k8bl@...> wrote:


  As long as we're discussing the Frequency List, I noticed that doing
the Reset does not provide the 60M Frequency for FT8.

I've inserted 5.357 MHz in my List. There is a fair bit of activity there
and many DX Stations to work nightly. It's easy to find a clear spot.

73,    Bob  K8BL










  
 



locked Re: frequencies for 160 - 6m?

K8BL BOB LIDDY <k8bl@...>
 

N0AN,

The Official Observer Program used to do an adequate job of informing
Amateurs of proper Band usage. Where are they these days?

As I said before, FT8 uses 8-FSK Modulation with 6.25 Hz spacing. It is
 not one discreet tone. Therefore, it would be impossible
 to ONLY use one tone at 1500 Hz to exchange information
 using FT8 on 60M or any other Band. 

GL/73,       Bob  K8BL/5

On Thursday, February 20, 2020, 03:55:49 AM CST, Hasan Schiers N0AN <hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:





Bob, 
Of course you are seeing them all over the place, and that is exactly what we are being warned about. I used to approach things exactly as you have and was subsequently told that these  "convenient" self-interpretations are going to result in notice of violations when the new monitoring program starts.

I will look for the precise wording I was sent a few weeks ago, and anyone who wants to can argue it out with the ARRL  Keep in mind  that the Monitoring program will be run by the ARRL, and they will be sending out notices and making referrals to the FCC for enforcement. 

73, N0AN

Hasan

On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 10:09 PM K8BL BOB LIDDY <k8bl@...> wrote:
FT8 uses 8-FSK Modulation with 6.25 Hz spacing. It is
not one discreet tone. Therefore, it would be impossible
to ONLY use one tone at 1500 Hz to exchange information
using FT8 on 60M or any other Band.

I'm seeing plenty of QSOs on 60M tonight from all across
NA and EU. My 10W to an end-fed LW at 20Ft works out
quite well.

GL/73,   Bob  K8BL

On Wednesday, February 19, 2020, 09:14:13 PM CST, Herb Blue <wb8asi@...> wrote:

I will practice my whistle to stay on 1500. 

  On February 19, 2020 at 10:04 PM Hasan Schiers N0AN <hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:


  According to the precise definition in the rules the entire 2800 Hz spectrum is NOT AVAILABLE!
  


  Only one frequency is permitted and that is 1500 Hz. No moving around, no spreading out, period. Applies only to USA stations.

  


  That is exactly what I was warned about. The rule is clear and it is equally clear it was not being enforced. It is going to be enforced, that is what I was told. 

  


  Take it for what it's worth,  I have no investment either way.

  


  73, N0AN 

  

  Hasan




  
  On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 6:39 PM Bruce N7XGR < n7xgr1@...> wrote:


  
  
  Then what we all need to do is start doing this,

  http://www.openculture.com/2013/03/speaking_in_whistles_the_whistled_language_of_oaxaca_mexico.html

  These people communicate by whistling tones that is understood by the receiver.

  This seems to be the same as the FT8 tones.  What is the difference between a whistled tone and a FT8 tone?

  We can whistle tones anywhere in the 2800 Hz USB transmit bandwidth.

  What about other countries?  Will the FCC enforce this to countries outside of the US boarder?

  


  Bruce  N7XGR




  
  On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 7:09 PM Hasan Schiers N0AN < hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:


  
  Re: 60m
  


  Be very careful about 60m in the USA. The spread of FT8 activity away from 1500 Hz may well be in violation of FCC rules. I received a warning that enforcement of this rule was going to start shortly with the onset of the new ARRL Monitoring program, wherein violations will be forwarded to the FCcCfor enforcement.

  


  I'd be careful.

  73, N0AN


  Hasan
  
  On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 4:26 PM K8BL BOB LIDDY < k8bl@...> wrote:


  As long as we're discussing the Frequency List, I noticed that doing
the Reset does not provide the 60M Frequency for FT8.

I've inserted 5.357 MHz in my List. There is a fair bit of activity there
and many DX Stations to work nightly. It's easy to find a clear spot.

73,    Bob  K8BL


 


locked Re: Computer recommendations

John
 

Could be looking for justification for a new computer... "Look honey, I asked
the folks on the group and the consensus is that I need that Power House I
showed you."

John

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Arnold Lausevich <nk9o@...>
Date: February 20, 2020 at 10:46 AM


Looking up the specs on this computer, I was blown away!

It seems like alot of power I would not need as it would only be limited to
WSJT-X , RTTY & CW.

Would it make sense for me to upgrade to this monster??

thanks,  de Joe/NK9O


locked Re: Computer recommendations

Arnold Lausevich <nk9o@...>
 

Looking up the specs on this computer, I was blown away!

It seems like alot of power I would not need as it would only be limited to WSJT-X , RTTY & CW.

Would it make sense for me to upgrade to this monster??

thanks,  de Joe/NK9O