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locked Re: 60 meters: Operating guidelines for FT8

Jim Cooper
 

On 21 Feb 2020 at 23:04, Seannon Baker (AG0NY) wrote:

This is why I question the legality
of FT8, it SPECIFICALLY STATES
EVERYWHERE PACTORIII, not PACTORIII
and other2k80J2D emissions.
specifically PACTORIII and PSK31. I
agree it "SHOULDN'T matter, but it
quite possibly DOES matter. also, it
SPECIFICALLY STATES PSK31, CW,
PACTORIII and RTTY on the band
charts*
The copy of the ARRL "US Amateur Radio Bands"
chart that I have, dated 4/25/2017, says:

"Permitted operating modes include upper sideband
voice (USB), CW, RTTY, PSK31 and other digital modes
SUCH AS [capitals are mine] PACTOR III."

The "such as" clearly does NOT restrict the modes
to only those digital modes specifically listed.


locked Re: 60 meters: Operating guidelines for FT8

Kevin k5vp
 

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On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 6:39 AM neil_zampella <neilz@...> wrote:

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On 2/22/2020 2:00 AM, benn pedersen wrote:

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Oz3ben

 

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Fra: Ria, N2RJ
Sendt: 22. februar 2020 07:44
Til: WSJTX@groups.io
Emne: Re: [WSJTX] 60 meters: Operating guidelines for FT8

 

That’s not what the regulations say. 

 

Also, FCC and NTIA have no jurisdiction on foreign hams, who are allowed generally to operate where they pleAse. A lot of the traffic is DX

 

Ria

N2RJ 

 

On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 1:32 AM Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:

not when it's used like it is on the other bands

there's only ONE spot (1500hz) we US hams can transmit on, and cannot when others are transmitting on the channel that's right there on the band chart.

 

Seannon AG0NY

 

On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 12:15 AM Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...> wrote:

97.307(f)(14) has the table of allowed emissions for 60m. It states that 2K80J2D is an allowed emission type. FT8 is a J2D emission that is less than 2.8kHz in bandwidth therefore it falls under that.

 

Pactor-3 and PSK31 were only listed as examples, presumably because they were popular at the time. 

 

FT8 is absolutely legal on 60m. 

 

73

Ria, N2RJ 

 

On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 12:53 AM Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:

except the R&O is not the law, CFAR is, it specifically states PACTORIII, PSK31 CW and RTTY not all iterations of these emissions codes, so, no, it's NOT clear there, but, that's my interpretation, it's questionable to me that FT8 is appropriate. if you JUST go by the emissions code, then it's legal go ahead, but another thing they're VERY specific on, which is kinda antithetical to how FT8 works, is "no more than one transmission on the channel at any time" and you can only operate on the exact frequency, not wherever you want in the passband.

take it how you want, just please don't ruin it for the rest of us?

Seannon AG0NY

 

On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 11:24 PM Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...> wrote:

The R&O is crystal clear.

28. Finally, we agree with commenters that limiting digital operation
to a specific technique
discourages the further development of additional techniques, which
may be more efficient than those
currently in use. Therefore, we permit an amateur station transmitting
RTTY emission 60H0J2B or data
emission 2K80J2D to use any unspecified digital code, subject to the
requirements of Section 97.309(b).

Again, "we permit an amateur station transmitting RTTY emission 60H0J2B or data
emission 2K80J2D to use any unspecified digital code, subject to the
requirements of Section 97.309(b)" - this means that ANY digital code
can be used, provided it's not obscured (encrypted),

2K80J2D is simply "Data" which covers FT8 and is an allowed emission type.

Here is a refresher on how to read the emission types:

2K80 - Bandwidth not to exceed 2.8kHz (meaning, any bandwidth up to 2.80kHz
J - Amplitude Modulation, Single Sideband, Suppressed Carrier - Check
2 - Digital with modulation - Check
D - Data, telecommand or telemetry - Check

Any reasonable person can therefore conclude that FT8 is not illegal
on 60 metres under US rules..

Hope this helps.

73
Ria, N2RJ


On Sat, 22 Feb 2020 at 00:04, Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:
>
> from the R&O here... https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2012/02/03/2012-2477https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2012/02/03/2012-2477/amateur-radio-use-of-the-allocation-at-5-mhz/amateur-radio-use-of-the-allocation-at-5-mhz
>
>
> 9. Under the existing rules, only upper sideband voice transmissions are permitted in the 60 meter band. In the NPRM, the Commission proposed to authorize the use of three additional emission designators in the band: CW emission 150HA1A, which is Morse telegraphy by means of on-off keying, and data emissions 2K80J2D and 60H0J2B. In § 97.307(f)(14)(i) of the proposed rules, the Commission restricts emission designator 2K80J2D to data using PACTOR-III technique and emission designator 60H0J2B to data using PSK31 technique. The Commission also sought comment on whether amateur stations could be permitted to transmit emission types in addition to those requested by ARRL in the 60 meter band without increasing the likelihood of interference to primary users. As discussed, the Commission adopts its proposal to allow the use of the three additional emission designators.
>
> 10. Emission Designators. Our proposal drew a wide range of responses. Although the majority of commenters fully or generally support the proposals that the Commission made in the NPRM, many commenters expressed concerns about some or all of the proposed new emission designators. Commenters were most supportive of the proposed addition of emission designators 150HA1A and 60H0J2B. By contrast, the proposal to add emission type 2K80J2D proved much more divisive. The record also includes a few commenters who are skeptical that additional emission types are appropriate for the 60 meter band.
>
> 12. Specific Techniques of the Data Emissions. Commenters strongly believe that the use of the emission designators 60H0J2B and 2K80J2D should not be restricted to the specific techniques of PSK31 and PACTOR-III, respectively. This approach differs from what was proposed in the NPRM. This is why I question the legality of FT8, it SPECIFICALLY STATES EVERYWHERE PACTORIII, not PACTORIII and other2k80J2D emissions. specifically PACTORIII and PSK31. I agree it "SHOULDN'T matter, but it quite possibly DOES matter. also, it SPECIFICALLY STATES PSK31, CW, PACTORIII and RTTY on the band charts
>
> 14. The Commission recognizes that many commenters are concerned that the addition of new emission types— data emission types in general and PACTOR-III specifically—holds the risk of reducing the utility of these channels for many amateurs, especially for those who may not readily recognize data transmissions and may avoid use of the channels out of an abundance of caution. The Commission concludes that there are ways to minimize any potential disruption that the new emission types could cause. ARRL notes that amateur “stations typically utilize relatively short transmissions in telegraphy and are able to manually detect the presence of a non-Amateur signal within the channel bandwidth while operating in that mode” and that the “same is true of 60H0J2B and 2K80J2D emissions, if careful manual operating practices are used.” Moreover, ARRL commits to the necessary dissemination of “best practices” information to the amateur community on a timely basis and to the adoption and publication of a comprehensive band plan for these channels that will maintain maximum flexibility in Amateur use without interference. Lastly, the Commission adopts certain operational rules, which will serve to ensure that the new emission types are used in a manner that promotes continued shared use of the band by all. do you listen to your radio on the digital modes? or just use the waterfall?
>
> Seannon AG0NY
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> (ii) The following requirements also apply:
>
> (A) When transmitting the phone, RTTY, and data emissions, the suppressed carrier frequency may be set as specified in § 97.303(h).
>
> (B) The control operator of a station transmitting data or RTTY emissions must exercise care to limit the length of transmission so as to avoid causing harmful interference to United States Government stations.
>
> 8. Section 97.313 is amended by revising paragraphs (f) and (i) to read as follows.
>
> § 97.313
> Transmitter power standards.
> * * * * *
>
> (f) No station may transmit with a transmitter power exceeding 50 W PEP on the UHF 70 cm band from an area specified in paragraph (a) of footnote US270 in § 2.106, unless expressly authorized by the FCC after mutual agreement, on a case-by-case basis, between the District Director of the applicable field facility and the military area frequency coordinator at the applicable military base. An Earth station or telecommand station, however, may transmit on the 435-438 MHz segment with a maximum of 611 W effective radiated power (1 kW equivalent isotropically radiated power) without the authorization otherwise required. The transmitting antenna elevation angle between the lower half-power (−3 dB relative to the peak or antenna bore sight) point and the horizon must always be greater than 10°.
>
> * * * * *
>
> (i) No station may transmit with an effective radiated power (ERP) exceeding 100 W PEP on the 60 m band. For the purpose of computing ERP, the transmitter PEP will be multiplied by the antenna gain relative to a half-wave dipole antenna. A half-wave dipole antenna will be presumed to have a gain of 1 (0 dBd). Licensees using other antennas must maintain in their station records either the antenna manufacturer's data on the antenna gain or calculations of the antenna gain.
>
> * * * * *
>
> Footnotes
>
> 1. The RFA, see 5 U.S.C. 601-612, has been amended by the Small Business Regulatory Enforcement Fairness Act of 1996 (SBREFA), Public Law 104-121, Title II, 110 Stat. 857 (1996).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 2. 5 U.S.C. 605(b).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 3. 5 U.S.C. 601(6).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 4. 5 U.S.C. 601(3) (incorporating by reference the definition of “small business concern” in the Small Business Act, 15 U.S.C. 632). Pursuant to 5 U.S.C. 601(3), the statutory definition of a small business applies “unless an agency, after consultation with the Office of Advocacy of the Small Business Administration and after opportunity for public comment, establishes one or more definitions of such term which are appropriate to the activities of the agency and publishes such definition(s) in the Federal Register.”
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 5. 15 U.S.C. 632.
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 6. See 5 U.S.C. 605(b).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 7. See 5 U.S.C. 801(a)(1)(A).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 8. See 5 U.S.C. 604(b).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> BILLING CODE 6712-01-P
>
> BILLING CODE 6712-01-C
>
> [FR Doc. 2012-2477 Filed 2-2-12; 8:45 am]
>
> BILLING CODE 6712-01-P
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 10:07 PM Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...> wrote:
>>
>> "I'm not even entirely convinced that it's legal for us to use FT8 on
>> this band AT ALL because they don't specify it, they mention CW,
>> PSK31, PACTORIII (not AMTOR or any other similar modes) and
>> begrudgingly RTTY"
>>
>> You may not be entirely convinced, but the R&O is pretty clear:
>>
>> Finally, we agree with commenters that limiting digital operation to a
>> specific technique
>> discourages the further development of additional techniques, which
>> may be more efficient than those
>> currently in use. >>>Therefore, we permit an amateur station
>> transmitting RTTY emission 60H0J2B or data
>> emission 2K80J2D to use any unspecified digital code, subject to the
>> requirements of Section 97.309(b).<<<
>>
>> Note the highlighted part. Any unspecified digital code may be used.
>> FT8 falls under that and is not illegal on 60m.
>>
>> 73
>> Ria, N2RJ
>>
>> On Fri, 21 Feb 2020 at 22:42, Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hassan, I'm going to pick out a bit of info here... you stated that being able to use full bandwidth for SSB, but only the bandwidth of a single transmission on digital, which for this band is CW, (on off, not modulated) PSK31, PACTORIII, and RTTY, RTTY seems to have been added begrudgingly, but the important things of note are 1. WE ARE SECONDARY ON THIS BAND! , not primary, so we exist here only as long as we do things the way we won't get in trouble, we may get a slice of the band at some point, but we need to prove our ability to abide by the rules. 2, the band poster is pretty clear on the rules for this band,  it really is, 3. when you consider the types of use the primary users of the band have for it, (governmental) it makes sense that it would be one station transmitting at a time, period, if you transmit over someone else's transmission, you are causing interference. if you can't hear the station, it's unintentional, if you do it and you KNOW there's someone transmitting, it's INTENTIONAL INTERFERENCE, and against FCC regs anyway...like if you're hearing a pileup and everyone's running 50 watts, and you decide to heck with them, I'm going to make this contact if it kills me and slam them with a beam and full legal limit, you're breaking the intent of the rules. going back to the use, we are secondary, if you have 35 stations clogging up the channel, it would take much more time to tell each person QRT than the one or two that it would be.
>> >
>> > think of it this way, we are "BORROWING" the car... what rules should you follow when you borrow the car? the ones the person that let you use the car has, along with all local laws... don't get it dirty, don't wreck it, don't leave dirty diapers or used condoms in it don't do something that makes the person that has the car say I don't think I want to let you borrow the car again.
>> >
>> > the rules on this band are restrictive for a reason, just as their own internal rules are on the band. I'm not even entirely convinced that it's legal for us to use FT8 on this band AT ALL because they don't specify it, they mention CW, PSK31, PACTORIII (not AMTOR or any other similar modes) and begrudgingly RTTY
>> >
>> > Seannon, AG0NY
>> >
>> > Only one signal at a time is permitted on any channel." (From ARRL Band Poster)
>> > http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/Band%20Chart/Band%20Chart%20-%2011X17%20Color.pdf
>> >
>> > More on Center of Channel ( 1500 Hz) Requirement:
>> >
>> > "With your PSK31 software display configured to indicate audio frequencies, click your mouse cursor at the 1500 Hz mark (see below). With your radio in the USB mode, this marker indicates the center of the channel and it is the frequency on which you should be transmitting."
>> >
>> > There is no special exemption for FT8, the same center channel rule applies.
>> >
>> > In Summary from the ARRL:
>> >
>> > 1. Only one station may transmit at a time.
>> > 2. They must be at he CENTER of the allocated channel (1500 Hz)
>> > 3. NTIA has defined "on channel" as precisely 1.5 kHz below the assigned channel frequency.
>> >
>> > These are highly restrictive and have NOT been enforced. I posted my initial "Be Careful" message, because I was warned by someone familiar with the upcoming ARRL take-over of the FCC certified Monitoring Program, that once the new program had officially started : ENFORCEMENT WOULD BE FORTHCOMING and the enforcement will include referrals to the FCC for action.
>> >
>> > Unfortunately, the comment below reflects the attitude of many USA amateurs:
>> >
>> >  "If the FCC is that concerned about legitimate FT8 use within that 2.8 KHz BW, they need to clarify their own rules and rationale and make this clarification known.  Because right now, its as clear as mud.  "Field Day" for lawyers, so to speak."
>> >
>> > But the rules ARE clear here, there's a power level, compared to known quantity, they specifically give both CW center frequencies and USB frequencies as "Channels" they also give specific emissions types that are allowed, also, don't transmit when you can hear a station transmitting (only one station transmitting at any time) now, as for the rationale? that's not for us really, we have the rules to follow.
>> >
>> > As a result,  the 60m requirements for digital, (FT8 included), have been summarily ignored if not outright violated. I, myself did so, because I did not understand how one could reasonably operate a full SSB bandwidth and that was ok, but could not use the entire 2.8 kHz bandwidth for multiple narrow band FT8 transmissions. It makes NO sense. But....the rule is unforgiving and I have been told they are going to enforce it.
>> > It makes much more sense when you consider the government as primary, with us as secondary, it would take much more time to contact 20-30 stations to tell them to QRT than one or two governments would not try to stuff a ton of traffic in a single channel like this, they go for reliable communications over efficiency, unlike hams
>> >
>> >
>> > Only one signal at a time is permitted on any channel." (From ARRL Band Poster)
>> > http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/Band%20Chart/Band%20Chart%20-%2011X17%20Color.pdf
>> >
>> > More on Center of Channel ( 1500 Hz) Requirement:
>> >
>> > "With your PSK31 software display configured to indicate audio frequencies, click your mouse cursor at the 1500 Hz mark (see below). With your radio in the USB mode, this marker indicates the center of the channel and it is the frequency on which you should be transmitting."
>> >
>> > There is no special exemption for FT8, the same center channel rule applies.
>> >
>> > In Summary from the ARRL:
>> >
>> > 1. Only one station may transmit at a time.
>> > 2. They must be at he CENTER of the allocated channel (1500 Hz)
>> > 3. NTIA has defined "on channel" as precisely 1.5 kHz below the assigned channel frequency.
>> >
>> > These are highly restrictive and have NOT been enforced. I posted my initial "Be Careful" message, because I was warned by someone familiar with the upcoming ARRL take-over of the FCC certified Monitoring Program, that once the new program had officially started : ENFORCEMENT WOULD BE FORTHCOMING and the enforcement will include referrals to the FCC for action.
>> >
>> > Unfortunately, the comment below reflects the attitude of many USA amateurs:
>> >
>> >  "If the FCC is that concerned about legitimate FT8 use within that 2.8 KHz BW, they need to clarify their own rules and rationale and make this clarification known.  Because right now, its as clear as mud.  "Field Day" for lawyers, so to speak."
>> > The rules are pretty well spelled out, look at the chart above, there's channel info and conversions, , center channels, power requirements in relation to a specific antenna, and emissions modes (PSK31, PACTORIII not AMTOR or similar modes and RTTY, so it's questionable as to the legality of FT8 here anyway.
>> > As a result,  the 60m requirements for digital, (FT8 included), have been summarily ignored if not outright violated. I, myself did so, because I did not understand how one could reasonably operate a full SSB bandwidth and that was ok, but could not use the entire 2.8 kHz bandwidth for multiple narrow band FT8 transmissions. It makes NO sense. But....the rule is unforgiving and I have been told they are going to enforce it.
>> > It makes a lot more sense when you consider the PRIMARY on the band, and not us as amateurs that are secondary. governments would use this as close to a clear channel for simplicity's sake especially true in emergency communications, or wartime, so, if you hear someone transmitting, wait, don't transmit on top of them, it could be life or death. We as hams like to make the case for efficiency, the government for reliable communications
>> >
>> > I have advocated one thing and one thing only: Be Careful. I don't have horse this race. It would be a shame, however, if we lost this allocation or someone would get a QSL card from the FCC because they refused to exercise some caution in the matter.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I have advocated one thing and one thing only: Be Careful. I don't have horse this race. It would be a shame, however, if we lost this allocation or someone would get a QSL card from the FCC because they refused to exercise some caution in the matter.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 7:55 AM Hasan Schiers N0AN <hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> From the ARRL:
>> >> These are channel-center frequencies, not the ones you tune your radio to. The NTIA told the FCC that hams "must assure that their signal is transmitted on the channel-center frequency." This means the amateur signal must be centered within the 2.8-kHz-wide channel. The FCC has provided scant guidance beyond suggesting--in a footnote that follows the NTIA's advice--that amateurs tune 1.5 kHz below the center-channel frequencies to be "on channel." Amateurs need to be sure that the tuning display readout reflects transmitted (ie, carrier) frequency (most do). Consult your transceiver's manual if you're not sure.
>> >>
>> >> From the ARRL:
>> >> In addition, the FCC continues to require that all digital transmissions be centered on the channel-center frequencies, which the Report and Order defines as being 1.5 kHz above the suppressed carrier frequency of a transceiver operated in the Upper Sideband (USB) mode. This is typically the frequency shown on the frequency display.
>> >>
>> >> (Note that this does not say 1580, 1320, 700, ...it says 1.5 kHz) my comment, not ARRL's)
>> >>
>> >> http://www.arrl.org/60m-channel-allocation
>> >> "Operating at strict channel-center frequencies may come as a disappointment to many, but cooperating with the NTIA is key to expanded privileges in the future.
>> >> The channel center frequencies are":..snipped...60 meters
>> >>
>> >> "Only one signal at a time is permitted on any channel." (From ARRL Band Poster)
>> >> http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/Band%20Chart/Band%20Chart%20-%2011X17%20Color.pdf
>> >>
>> >> More on Center of Channel ( 1500 Hz) Requirement:
>> >>
>> >> "With your PSK31 software display configured to indicate audio frequencies, click your mouse cursor at the 1500 Hz mark (see below). With your radio in the USB mode, this marker indicates the center of the channel and it is the frequency on which you should be transmitting."
>> >>
>> >> There is no special exemption for FT8, the same center channel rule applies.
>> >>
>> >> In Summary from the ARRL:
>> >>
>> >> 1. Only one station may transmit at a time.
>> >> 2. They must be at he CENTER of the allocated channel (1500 Hz)
>> >> 3. NTIA has defined "on channel" as precisely 1.5 kHz below the assigned channel frequency.
>> >>
>> >> These are highly restrictive and have NOT been enforced. I posted my initial "Be Careful" message, because I was warned by someone familiar with the upcoming ARRL take-over of the FCC certified Monitoring Program, that once the new program had officially started : ENFORCEMENT WOULD BE FORTHCOMING and the enforcement will include referrals to the FCC for action.
>> >>
>> >> Unfortunately, the comment below reflects the attitude of many USA amateurs:
>> >>
>> >>  "If the FCC is that concerned about legitimate FT8 use within that 2.8 KHz BW, they need to clarify their own rules and rationale and make this clarification known.  Because right now, its as clear as mud.  "Field Day" for lawyers, so to speak."
>> >>
>> >> As a result,  the 60m requirements for digital, (FT8 included), have been summarily ignored if not outright violated. I, myself did so, because I did not understand how one could reasonably operate a full SSB bandwidth and that was ok, but could not use the entire 2.8 kHz bandwidth for multiple narrow band FT8 transmissions. It makes NO sense. But....the rule is unforgiving and I have been told they are going to enforce it.
>> >>
>> >> I have advocated one thing and one thing only: Be Careful. I don't have horse this race. It would be a shame, however, if we lost this allocation or someone would get a QSL card from the FCC because they refused to exercise some caution in the matter.
>> >>
>> >> 73, N0AN
>> >> Hasan
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 5:41 AM Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Also, it clearly states that no more than one station transmit at any given time thus also limiting to a conversational rather than a transactional contact type. (If you hear a conversation, don't transmit, if you hear a CQ, answer it unless you hear someone else answering)
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Seannon, ag0ny
>> >>>
>> >>> On Thu, Feb 20, 2020, 05:15 Nc8q-mesh@... <nc8q-mesh@...> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On 2/20/20 5:17 AM, Hasan Schiers N0AN wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Again, ARRL have *on multiple occasions* reported communications from
>> >>>> FCC Enforcement staff (and NTIA who are responsible for the "60 M
>> >>>> band") reminding US licensed amateurs that 97.303(h) requires using
>> >>>> *identical* audio frequency and carrier offsets so that the transmitted
>> >>>> signal is centered exactly on the middle of the assigned "Channel" -
>> >>>> not generating a random offset within a 2.7 KHz "band".
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> IMHO, this discussion of operating FT8 on 60 meters deserves its own thread.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>  From looking at the waterfall display (Wide Graph),
>> >>>> it seems to me that a FT8 Tx frequency of 1500 indicates signals from
>> >>>> 'dial frequency + 1500 Hz' to 'dial frequency + ~1548 Hz'.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The get TX signals centered on 1500 Hz,
>> >>>>  would it not require setting WSJTX to 1476 Hz ?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Chuck
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > “It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”
>> >
>> > Nikola Tesla
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
> --
> “It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”
>
> Nikola Tesla
>
>
>



--

“It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”

Nikola Tesla

 

 

 



--

“It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”

Nikola Tesla

 

 

 



    



--
73,

Kevin Potter 
k5vp


locked Unsubscribing. Was: Re: ***SPAM*** Re: [WSJTX] 60 meters: Operating guidelines for FT8

Nc8q-mesh@gelm.net
 



On 2/22/20 2:00 AM, benn pedersen wrote:

Can i be usubscribe this Group…it´s only spam.

Oz3ben

 

Sendt fra Mail til Windows 10


Yes, of course. Inside every message is:
List-Unsubscribe: <https://groups.io/g/WSJTX/unsub>



locked Re: Request for enhancement

neil_zampella <neilz@...>
 

Its not a robot ... and you need to log the contact manually ...

Neil, KN3ILZ

On 2/22/2020 9:41 AM, Bob wrote:

Dave, why the request? Well, for me I don't particularly like sitting indoors in front of the radio all day. So, while languishing at the pool, I am occasionally alerted on my Android that (for example) there was a DX Spot for VE3IJ on 20M FT4. I would like to be able to acknowledge (by tapping the screen) that I want my robot to QSY WSJT-X to 20M FT4  (by sending the requested UDP messages) and call VE3IJ. Then, having satisfied the obligatory 'contemporaneous user input' (I tapped the screen) requirement, I can continue my siesta in good conscience. SeventyThree(s).

    


locked Re: 60 meters: Operating guidelines for FT8

Jim Shorney
 

Technically, no, FT8 is not an SSB signal. it is not amplitude modulated and in this context the "carrier" is nothing more than another heterodyne mix local oscillator of which there can be several in a typical (non-SDR) transceiver.

73

-Jim
NU0C

On Sat, 22 Feb 2020 02:44:49 -0600
"Seannon Baker (AG0NY)" <KD4IYI@...> wrote:

Also, the rules regarding the center frequencies are not clear. (they are)
FT8 doesn’t have a carrier. (yes it does, it's suppressed, but it's still
the carrier frequency) It’s SSB suppressed carrier. It’s FSK and its signal
shifts during transmission.


locked Re: Request for enhancement

Bob
 

Dave, why the request? Well, for me I don't particularly like sitting indoors in front of the radio all day. So, while languishing at the pool, I am occasionally alerted on my Android that (for example) there was a DX Spot for VE3IJ on 20M FT4. I would like to be able to acknowledge (by tapping the screen) that I want my robot to QSY WSJT-X to 20M FT4  (by sending the requested UDP messages) and call VE3IJ. Then, having satisfied the obligatory 'contemporaneous user input' (I tapped the screen) requirement, I can continue my siesta in good conscience. SeventyThree(s).


locked Re: 60 meters: Operating guidelines for FT8

neil_zampella <neilz@...>
 

Actually, I'm fairly sure the moderators can close a topic ... HINT HINT

On 2/22/2020 2:00 AM, benn pedersen wrote:

Can i be usubscribe this Group…it´s only spam.

Oz3ben

 

Sendt fra Mail til Windows 10

 

Fra: Ria, N2RJ
Sendt: 22. februar 2020 07:44
Til: WSJTX@groups.io
Emne: Re: [WSJTX] 60 meters: Operating guidelines for FT8

 

That’s not what the regulations say. 

 

Also, FCC and NTIA have no jurisdiction on foreign hams, who are allowed generally to operate where they pleAse. A lot of the traffic is DX

 

Ria

N2RJ 

 

On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 1:32 AM Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:

not when it's used like it is on the other bands

there's only ONE spot (1500hz) we US hams can transmit on, and cannot when others are transmitting on the channel that's right there on the band chart.

 

Seannon AG0NY

 

On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 12:15 AM Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...> wrote:

97.307(f)(14) has the table of allowed emissions for 60m. It states that 2K80J2D is an allowed emission type. FT8 is a J2D emission that is less than 2.8kHz in bandwidth therefore it falls under that.

 

Pactor-3 and PSK31 were only listed as examples, presumably because they were popular at the time. 

 

FT8 is absolutely legal on 60m. 

 

73

Ria, N2RJ 

 

On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 12:53 AM Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:

except the R&O is not the law, CFAR is, it specifically states PACTORIII, PSK31 CW and RTTY not all iterations of these emissions codes, so, no, it's NOT clear there, but, that's my interpretation, it's questionable to me that FT8 is appropriate. if you JUST go by the emissions code, then it's legal go ahead, but another thing they're VERY specific on, which is kinda antithetical to how FT8 works, is "no more than one transmission on the channel at any time" and you can only operate on the exact frequency, not wherever you want in the passband.

take it how you want, just please don't ruin it for the rest of us?

Seannon AG0NY

 

On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 11:24 PM Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...> wrote:

The R&O is crystal clear.

28. Finally, we agree with commenters that limiting digital operation
to a specific technique
discourages the further development of additional techniques, which
may be more efficient than those
currently in use. Therefore, we permit an amateur station transmitting
RTTY emission 60H0J2B or data
emission 2K80J2D to use any unspecified digital code, subject to the
requirements of Section 97.309(b).

Again, "we permit an amateur station transmitting RTTY emission 60H0J2B or data
emission 2K80J2D to use any unspecified digital code, subject to the
requirements of Section 97.309(b)" - this means that ANY digital code
can be used, provided it's not obscured (encrypted),

2K80J2D is simply "Data" which covers FT8 and is an allowed emission type.

Here is a refresher on how to read the emission types:

2K80 - Bandwidth not to exceed 2.8kHz (meaning, any bandwidth up to 2.80kHz
J - Amplitude Modulation, Single Sideband, Suppressed Carrier - Check
2 - Digital with modulation - Check
D - Data, telecommand or telemetry - Check

Any reasonable person can therefore conclude that FT8 is not illegal
on 60 metres under US rules..

Hope this helps.

73
Ria, N2RJ


On Sat, 22 Feb 2020 at 00:04, Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:
>
> from the R&O here... https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2012/02/03/2012-2477https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2012/02/03/2012-2477/amateur-radio-use-of-the-allocation-at-5-mhz/amateur-radio-use-of-the-allocation-at-5-mhz
>
>
> 9. Under the existing rules, only upper sideband voice transmissions are permitted in the 60 meter band. In the NPRM, the Commission proposed to authorize the use of three additional emission designators in the band: CW emission 150HA1A, which is Morse telegraphy by means of on-off keying, and data emissions 2K80J2D and 60H0J2B. In § 97.307(f)(14)(i) of the proposed rules, the Commission restricts emission designator 2K80J2D to data using PACTOR-III technique and emission designator 60H0J2B to data using PSK31 technique. The Commission also sought comment on whether amateur stations could be permitted to transmit emission types in addition to those requested by ARRL in the 60 meter band without increasing the likelihood of interference to primary users. As discussed, the Commission adopts its proposal to allow the use of the three additional emission designators.
>
> 10. Emission Designators. Our proposal drew a wide range of responses. Although the majority of commenters fully or generally support the proposals that the Commission made in the NPRM, many commenters expressed concerns about some or all of the proposed new emission designators. Commenters were most supportive of the proposed addition of emission designators 150HA1A and 60H0J2B. By contrast, the proposal to add emission type 2K80J2D proved much more divisive. The record also includes a few commenters who are skeptical that additional emission types are appropriate for the 60 meter band.
>
> 12. Specific Techniques of the Data Emissions. Commenters strongly believe that the use of the emission designators 60H0J2B and 2K80J2D should not be restricted to the specific techniques of PSK31 and PACTOR-III, respectively. This approach differs from what was proposed in the NPRM. This is why I question the legality of FT8, it SPECIFICALLY STATES EVERYWHERE PACTORIII, not PACTORIII and other2k80J2D emissions. specifically PACTORIII and PSK31. I agree it "SHOULDN'T matter, but it quite possibly DOES matter. also, it SPECIFICALLY STATES PSK31, CW, PACTORIII and RTTY on the band charts
>
> 14. The Commission recognizes that many commenters are concerned that the addition of new emission types— data emission types in general and PACTOR-III specifically—holds the risk of reducing the utility of these channels for many amateurs, especially for those who may not readily recognize data transmissions and may avoid use of the channels out of an abundance of caution. The Commission concludes that there are ways to minimize any potential disruption that the new emission types could cause. ARRL notes that amateur “stations typically utilize relatively short transmissions in telegraphy and are able to manually detect the presence of a non-Amateur signal within the channel bandwidth while operating in that mode” and that the “same is true of 60H0J2B and 2K80J2D emissions, if careful manual operating practices are used.” Moreover, ARRL commits to the necessary dissemination of “best practices” information to the amateur community on a timely basis and to the adoption and publication of a comprehensive band plan for these channels that will maintain maximum flexibility in Amateur use without interference. Lastly, the Commission adopts certain operational rules, which will serve to ensure that the new emission types are used in a manner that promotes continued shared use of the band by all. do you listen to your radio on the digital modes? or just use the waterfall?
>
> Seannon AG0NY
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> (ii) The following requirements also apply:
>
> (A) When transmitting the phone, RTTY, and data emissions, the suppressed carrier frequency may be set as specified in § 97.303(h).
>
> (B) The control operator of a station transmitting data or RTTY emissions must exercise care to limit the length of transmission so as to avoid causing harmful interference to United States Government stations.
>
> 8. Section 97.313 is amended by revising paragraphs (f) and (i) to read as follows.
>
> § 97.313
> Transmitter power standards.
> * * * * *
>
> (f) No station may transmit with a transmitter power exceeding 50 W PEP on the UHF 70 cm band from an area specified in paragraph (a) of footnote US270 in § 2.106, unless expressly authorized by the FCC after mutual agreement, on a case-by-case basis, between the District Director of the applicable field facility and the military area frequency coordinator at the applicable military base. An Earth station or telecommand station, however, may transmit on the 435-438 MHz segment with a maximum of 611 W effective radiated power (1 kW equivalent isotropically radiated power) without the authorization otherwise required. The transmitting antenna elevation angle between the lower half-power (−3 dB relative to the peak or antenna bore sight) point and the horizon must always be greater than 10°.
>
> * * * * *
>
> (i) No station may transmit with an effective radiated power (ERP) exceeding 100 W PEP on the 60 m band. For the purpose of computing ERP, the transmitter PEP will be multiplied by the antenna gain relative to a half-wave dipole antenna. A half-wave dipole antenna will be presumed to have a gain of 1 (0 dBd). Licensees using other antennas must maintain in their station records either the antenna manufacturer's data on the antenna gain or calculations of the antenna gain.
>
> * * * * *
>
> Footnotes
>
> 1. The RFA, see 5 U.S.C. 601-612, has been amended by the Small Business Regulatory Enforcement Fairness Act of 1996 (SBREFA), Public Law 104-121, Title II, 110 Stat. 857 (1996).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 2. 5 U.S.C. 605(b).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 3. 5 U.S.C. 601(6).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 4. 5 U.S.C. 601(3) (incorporating by reference the definition of “small business concern” in the Small Business Act, 15 U.S.C. 632). Pursuant to 5 U.S.C. 601(3), the statutory definition of a small business applies “unless an agency, after consultation with the Office of Advocacy of the Small Business Administration and after opportunity for public comment, establishes one or more definitions of such term which are appropriate to the activities of the agency and publishes such definition(s) in the Federal Register.”
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 5. 15 U.S.C. 632.
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 6. See 5 U.S.C. 605(b).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 7. See 5 U.S.C. 801(a)(1)(A).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 8. See 5 U.S.C. 604(b).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> BILLING CODE 6712-01-P
>
> BILLING CODE 6712-01-C
>
> [FR Doc. 2012-2477 Filed 2-2-12; 8:45 am]
>
> BILLING CODE 6712-01-P
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 10:07 PM Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...> wrote:
>>
>> "I'm not even entirely convinced that it's legal for us to use FT8 on
>> this band AT ALL because they don't specify it, they mention CW,
>> PSK31, PACTORIII (not AMTOR or any other similar modes) and
>> begrudgingly RTTY"
>>
>> You may not be entirely convinced, but the R&O is pretty clear:
>>
>> Finally, we agree with commenters that limiting digital operation to a
>> specific technique
>> discourages the further development of additional techniques, which
>> may be more efficient than those
>> currently in use. >>>Therefore, we permit an amateur station
>> transmitting RTTY emission 60H0J2B or data
>> emission 2K80J2D to use any unspecified digital code, subject to the
>> requirements of Section 97.309(b).<<<
>>
>> Note the highlighted part. Any unspecified digital code may be used.
>> FT8 falls under that and is not illegal on 60m.
>>
>> 73
>> Ria, N2RJ
>>
>> On Fri, 21 Feb 2020 at 22:42, Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hassan, I'm going to pick out a bit of info here... you stated that being able to use full bandwidth for SSB, but only the bandwidth of a single transmission on digital, which for this band is CW, (on off, not modulated) PSK31, PACTORIII, and RTTY, RTTY seems to have been added begrudgingly, but the important things of note are 1. WE ARE SECONDARY ON THIS BAND! , not primary, so we exist here only as long as we do things the way we won't get in trouble, we may get a slice of the band at some point, but we need to prove our ability to abide by the rules. 2, the band poster is pretty clear on the rules for this band,  it really is, 3. when you consider the types of use the primary users of the band have for it, (governmental) it makes sense that it would be one station transmitting at a time, period, if you transmit over someone else's transmission, you are causing interference. if you can't hear the station, it's unintentional, if you do it and you KNOW there's someone transmitting, it's INTENTIONAL INTERFERENCE, and against FCC regs anyway...like if you're hearing a pileup and everyone's running 50 watts, and you decide to heck with them, I'm going to make this contact if it kills me and slam them with a beam and full legal limit, you're breaking the intent of the rules. going back to the use, we are secondary, if you have 35 stations clogging up the channel, it would take much more time to tell each person QRT than the one or two that it would be.
>> >
>> > think of it this way, we are "BORROWING" the car... what rules should you follow when you borrow the car? the ones the person that let you use the car has, along with all local laws... don't get it dirty, don't wreck it, don't leave dirty diapers or used condoms in it don't do something that makes the person that has the car say I don't think I want to let you borrow the car again.
>> >
>> > the rules on this band are restrictive for a reason, just as their own internal rules are on the band. I'm not even entirely convinced that it's legal for us to use FT8 on this band AT ALL because they don't specify it, they mention CW, PSK31, PACTORIII (not AMTOR or any other similar modes) and begrudgingly RTTY
>> >
>> > Seannon, AG0NY
>> >
>> > Only one signal at a time is permitted on any channel." (From ARRL Band Poster)
>> > http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/Band%20Chart/Band%20Chart%20-%2011X17%20Color.pdf
>> >
>> > More on Center of Channel ( 1500 Hz) Requirement:
>> >
>> > "With your PSK31 software display configured to indicate audio frequencies, click your mouse cursor at the 1500 Hz mark (see below). With your radio in the USB mode, this marker indicates the center of the channel and it is the frequency on which you should be transmitting."
>> >
>> > There is no special exemption for FT8, the same center channel rule applies.
>> >
>> > In Summary from the ARRL:
>> >
>> > 1. Only one station may transmit at a time.
>> > 2. They must be at he CENTER of the allocated channel (1500 Hz)
>> > 3. NTIA has defined "on channel" as precisely 1.5 kHz below the assigned channel frequency.
>> >
>> > These are highly restrictive and have NOT been enforced. I posted my initial "Be Careful" message, because I was warned by someone familiar with the upcoming ARRL take-over of the FCC certified Monitoring Program, that once the new program had officially started : ENFORCEMENT WOULD BE FORTHCOMING and the enforcement will include referrals to the FCC for action.
>> >
>> > Unfortunately, the comment below reflects the attitude of many USA amateurs:
>> >
>> >  "If the FCC is that concerned about legitimate FT8 use within that 2.8 KHz BW, they need to clarify their own rules and rationale and make this clarification known.  Because right now, its as clear as mud.  "Field Day" for lawyers, so to speak."
>> >
>> > But the rules ARE clear here, there's a power level, compared to known quantity, they specifically give both CW center frequencies and USB frequencies as "Channels" they also give specific emissions types that are allowed, also, don't transmit when you can hear a station transmitting (only one station transmitting at any time) now, as for the rationale? that's not for us really, we have the rules to follow.
>> >
>> > As a result,  the 60m requirements for digital, (FT8 included), have been summarily ignored if not outright violated. I, myself did so, because I did not understand how one could reasonably operate a full SSB bandwidth and that was ok, but could not use the entire 2.8 kHz bandwidth for multiple narrow band FT8 transmissions. It makes NO sense. But....the rule is unforgiving and I have been told they are going to enforce it.
>> > It makes much more sense when you consider the government as primary, with us as secondary, it would take much more time to contact 20-30 stations to tell them to QRT than one or two governments would not try to stuff a ton of traffic in a single channel like this, they go for reliable communications over efficiency, unlike hams
>> >
>> >
>> > Only one signal at a time is permitted on any channel." (From ARRL Band Poster)
>> > http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/Band%20Chart/Band%20Chart%20-%2011X17%20Color.pdf
>> >
>> > More on Center of Channel ( 1500 Hz) Requirement:
>> >
>> > "With your PSK31 software display configured to indicate audio frequencies, click your mouse cursor at the 1500 Hz mark (see below). With your radio in the USB mode, this marker indicates the center of the channel and it is the frequency on which you should be transmitting."
>> >
>> > There is no special exemption for FT8, the same center channel rule applies.
>> >
>> > In Summary from the ARRL:
>> >
>> > 1. Only one station may transmit at a time.
>> > 2. They must be at he CENTER of the allocated channel (1500 Hz)
>> > 3. NTIA has defined "on channel" as precisely 1.5 kHz below the assigned channel frequency.
>> >
>> > These are highly restrictive and have NOT been enforced. I posted my initial "Be Careful" message, because I was warned by someone familiar with the upcoming ARRL take-over of the FCC certified Monitoring Program, that once the new program had officially started : ENFORCEMENT WOULD BE FORTHCOMING and the enforcement will include referrals to the FCC for action.
>> >
>> > Unfortunately, the comment below reflects the attitude of many USA amateurs:
>> >
>> >  "If the FCC is that concerned about legitimate FT8 use within that 2.8 KHz BW, they need to clarify their own rules and rationale and make this clarification known.  Because right now, its as clear as mud.  "Field Day" for lawyers, so to speak."
>> > The rules are pretty well spelled out, look at the chart above, there's channel info and conversions, , center channels, power requirements in relation to a specific antenna, and emissions modes (PSK31, PACTORIII not AMTOR or similar modes and RTTY, so it's questionable as to the legality of FT8 here anyway.
>> > As a result,  the 60m requirements for digital, (FT8 included), have been summarily ignored if not outright violated. I, myself did so, because I did not understand how one could reasonably operate a full SSB bandwidth and that was ok, but could not use the entire 2.8 kHz bandwidth for multiple narrow band FT8 transmissions. It makes NO sense. But....the rule is unforgiving and I have been told they are going to enforce it.
>> > It makes a lot more sense when you consider the PRIMARY on the band, and not us as amateurs that are secondary. governments would use this as close to a clear channel for simplicity's sake especially true in emergency communications, or wartime, so, if you hear someone transmitting, wait, don't transmit on top of them, it could be life or death. We as hams like to make the case for efficiency, the government for reliable communications
>> >
>> > I have advocated one thing and one thing only: Be Careful. I don't have horse this race. It would be a shame, however, if we lost this allocation or someone would get a QSL card from the FCC because they refused to exercise some caution in the matter.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I have advocated one thing and one thing only: Be Careful. I don't have horse this race. It would be a shame, however, if we lost this allocation or someone would get a QSL card from the FCC because they refused to exercise some caution in the matter.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 7:55 AM Hasan Schiers N0AN <hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> From the ARRL:
>> >> These are channel-center frequencies, not the ones you tune your radio to. The NTIA told the FCC that hams "must assure that their signal is transmitted on the channel-center frequency." This means the amateur signal must be centered within the 2.8-kHz-wide channel. The FCC has provided scant guidance beyond suggesting--in a footnote that follows the NTIA's advice--that amateurs tune 1.5 kHz below the center-channel frequencies to be "on channel." Amateurs need to be sure that the tuning display readout reflects transmitted (ie, carrier) frequency (most do). Consult your transceiver's manual if you're not sure.
>> >>
>> >> From the ARRL:
>> >> In addition, the FCC continues to require that all digital transmissions be centered on the channel-center frequencies, which the Report and Order defines as being 1.5 kHz above the suppressed carrier frequency of a transceiver operated in the Upper Sideband (USB) mode. This is typically the frequency shown on the frequency display.
>> >>
>> >> (Note that this does not say 1580, 1320, 700, ...it says 1.5 kHz) my comment, not ARRL's)
>> >>
>> >> http://www.arrl.org/60m-channel-allocation
>> >> "Operating at strict channel-center frequencies may come as a disappointment to many, but cooperating with the NTIA is key to expanded privileges in the future.
>> >> The channel center frequencies are":..snipped...60 meters
>> >>
>> >> "Only one signal at a time is permitted on any channel." (From ARRL Band Poster)
>> >> http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/Band%20Chart/Band%20Chart%20-%2011X17%20Color.pdf
>> >>
>> >> More on Center of Channel ( 1500 Hz) Requirement:
>> >>
>> >> "With your PSK31 software display configured to indicate audio frequencies, click your mouse cursor at the 1500 Hz mark (see below). With your radio in the USB mode, this marker indicates the center of the channel and it is the frequency on which you should be transmitting."
>> >>
>> >> There is no special exemption for FT8, the same center channel rule applies.
>> >>
>> >> In Summary from the ARRL:
>> >>
>> >> 1. Only one station may transmit at a time.
>> >> 2. They must be at he CENTER of the allocated channel (1500 Hz)
>> >> 3. NTIA has defined "on channel" as precisely 1.5 kHz below the assigned channel frequency.
>> >>
>> >> These are highly restrictive and have NOT been enforced. I posted my initial "Be Careful" message, because I was warned by someone familiar with the upcoming ARRL take-over of the FCC certified Monitoring Program, that once the new program had officially started : ENFORCEMENT WOULD BE FORTHCOMING and the enforcement will include referrals to the FCC for action.
>> >>
>> >> Unfortunately, the comment below reflects the attitude of many USA amateurs:
>> >>
>> >>  "If the FCC is that concerned about legitimate FT8 use within that 2.8 KHz BW, they need to clarify their own rules and rationale and make this clarification known.  Because right now, its as clear as mud.  "Field Day" for lawyers, so to speak."
>> >>
>> >> As a result,  the 60m requirements for digital, (FT8 included), have been summarily ignored if not outright violated. I, myself did so, because I did not understand how one could reasonably operate a full SSB bandwidth and that was ok, but could not use the entire 2.8 kHz bandwidth for multiple narrow band FT8 transmissions. It makes NO sense. But....the rule is unforgiving and I have been told they are going to enforce it.
>> >>
>> >> I have advocated one thing and one thing only: Be Careful. I don't have horse this race. It would be a shame, however, if we lost this allocation or someone would get a QSL card from the FCC because they refused to exercise some caution in the matter.
>> >>
>> >> 73, N0AN
>> >> Hasan
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 5:41 AM Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Also, it clearly states that no more than one station transmit at any given time thus also limiting to a conversational rather than a transactional contact type. (If you hear a conversation, don't transmit, if you hear a CQ, answer it unless you hear someone else answering)
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Seannon, ag0ny
>> >>>
>> >>> On Thu, Feb 20, 2020, 05:15 Nc8q-mesh@... <nc8q-mesh@...> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On 2/20/20 5:17 AM, Hasan Schiers N0AN wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Again, ARRL have *on multiple occasions* reported communications from
>> >>>> FCC Enforcement staff (and NTIA who are responsible for the "60 M
>> >>>> band") reminding US licensed amateurs that 97.303(h) requires using
>> >>>> *identical* audio frequency and carrier offsets so that the transmitted
>> >>>> signal is centered exactly on the middle of the assigned "Channel" -
>> >>>> not generating a random offset within a 2.7 KHz "band".
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> IMHO, this discussion of operating FT8 on 60 meters deserves its own thread.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>  From looking at the waterfall display (Wide Graph),
>> >>>> it seems to me that a FT8 Tx frequency of 1500 indicates signals from
>> >>>> 'dial frequency + 1500 Hz' to 'dial frequency + ~1548 Hz'.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The get TX signals centered on 1500 Hz,
>> >>>>  would it not require setting WSJTX to 1476 Hz ?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Chuck
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > “It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”
>> >
>> > Nikola Tesla
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
> --
> “It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”
>
> Nikola Tesla
>
>
>



--

“It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”

Nikola Tesla

 

 

 



--

“It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”

Nikola Tesla

 

 

 



    


locked Re: 60 meters: Operating guidelines for FT8

Ken - K4XL
 

Too much heat, not enough light.


On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 9:09 AM benn pedersen <oz3ben@...> wrote:

Can i be usubscribe this Group…it´s only spam.

Oz3ben

 

Sendt fra Mail til Windows 10

 

Fra: Ria, N2RJ
Sendt: 22. februar 2020 07:44
Til: WSJTX@groups.io
Emne: Re: [WSJTX] 60 meters: Operating guidelines for FT8

 

That’s not what the regulations say. 

 

Also, FCC and NTIA have no jurisdiction on foreign hams, who are allowed generally to operate where they pleAse. A lot of the traffic is DX

 

Ria

N2RJ 

 

On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 1:32 AM Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:

not when it's used like it is on the other bands

there's only ONE spot (1500hz) we US hams can transmit on, and cannot when others are transmitting on the channel that's right there on the band chart.

 

Seannon AG0NY

 

On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 12:15 AM Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...> wrote:

97.307(f)(14) has the table of allowed emissions for 60m. It states that 2K80J2D is an allowed emission type. FT8 is a J2D emission that is less than 2.8kHz in bandwidth therefore it falls under that.

 

Pactor-3 and PSK31 were only listed as examples, presumably because they were popular at the time. 

 

FT8 is absolutely legal on 60m. 

 

73

Ria, N2RJ 

 

On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 12:53 AM Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:

except the R&O is not the law, CFAR is, it specifically states PACTORIII, PSK31 CW and RTTY not all iterations of these emissions codes, so, no, it's NOT clear there, but, that's my interpretation, it's questionable to me that FT8 is appropriate. if you JUST go by the emissions code, then it's legal go ahead, but another thing they're VERY specific on, which is kinda antithetical to how FT8 works, is "no more than one transmission on the channel at any time" and you can only operate on the exact frequency, not wherever you want in the passband.

take it how you want, just please don't ruin it for the rest of us?

Seannon AG0NY

 

On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 11:24 PM Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...> wrote:

The R&O is crystal clear.

28. Finally, we agree with commenters that limiting digital operation
to a specific technique
discourages the further development of additional techniques, which
may be more efficient than those
currently in use. Therefore, we permit an amateur station transmitting
RTTY emission 60H0J2B or data
emission 2K80J2D to use any unspecified digital code, subject to the
requirements of Section 97.309(b).

Again, "we permit an amateur station transmitting RTTY emission 60H0J2B or data
emission 2K80J2D to use any unspecified digital code, subject to the
requirements of Section 97.309(b)" - this means that ANY digital code
can be used, provided it's not obscured (encrypted),

2K80J2D is simply "Data" which covers FT8 and is an allowed emission type.

Here is a refresher on how to read the emission types:

2K80 - Bandwidth not to exceed 2.8kHz (meaning, any bandwidth up to 2.80kHz
J - Amplitude Modulation, Single Sideband, Suppressed Carrier - Check
2 - Digital with modulation - Check
D - Data, telecommand or telemetry - Check

Any reasonable person can therefore conclude that FT8 is not illegal
on 60 metres under US rules..

Hope this helps.

73
Ria, N2RJ


On Sat, 22 Feb 2020 at 00:04, Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:
>
> from the R&O here... https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2012/02/03/2012-2477https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2012/02/03/2012-2477/amateur-radio-use-of-the-allocation-at-5-mhz/amateur-radio-use-of-the-allocation-at-5-mhz
>
>
> 9. Under the existing rules, only upper sideband voice transmissions are permitted in the 60 meter band. In the NPRM, the Commission proposed to authorize the use of three additional emission designators in the band: CW emission 150HA1A, which is Morse telegraphy by means of on-off keying, and data emissions 2K80J2D and 60H0J2B. In § 97.307(f)(14)(i) of the proposed rules, the Commission restricts emission designator 2K80J2D to data using PACTOR-III technique and emission designator 60H0J2B to data using PSK31 technique. The Commission also sought comment on whether amateur stations could be permitted to transmit emission types in addition to those requested by ARRL in the 60 meter band without increasing the likelihood of interference to primary users. As discussed, the Commission adopts its proposal to allow the use of the three additional emission designators.
>
> 10. Emission Designators. Our proposal drew a wide range of responses. Although the majority of commenters fully or generally support the proposals that the Commission made in the NPRM, many commenters expressed concerns about some or all of the proposed new emission designators. Commenters were most supportive of the proposed addition of emission designators 150HA1A and 60H0J2B. By contrast, the proposal to add emission type 2K80J2D proved much more divisive. The record also includes a few commenters who are skeptical that additional emission types are appropriate for the 60 meter band.
>
> 12. Specific Techniques of the Data Emissions. Commenters strongly believe that the use of the emission designators 60H0J2B and 2K80J2D should not be restricted to the specific techniques of PSK31 and PACTOR-III, respectively. This approach differs from what was proposed in the NPRM. This is why I question the legality of FT8, it SPECIFICALLY STATES EVERYWHERE PACTORIII, not PACTORIII and other2k80J2D emissions. specifically PACTORIII and PSK31. I agree it "SHOULDN'T matter, but it quite possibly DOES matter. also, it SPECIFICALLY STATES PSK31, CW, PACTORIII and RTTY on the band charts
>
> 14. The Commission recognizes that many commenters are concerned that the addition of new emission types— data emission types in general and PACTOR-III specifically—holds the risk of reducing the utility of these channels for many amateurs, especially for those who may not readily recognize data transmissions and may avoid use of the channels out of an abundance of caution. The Commission concludes that there are ways to minimize any potential disruption that the new emission types could cause. ARRL notes that amateur “stations typically utilize relatively short transmissions in telegraphy and are able to manually detect the presence of a non-Amateur signal within the channel bandwidth while operating in that mode” and that the “same is true of 60H0J2B and 2K80J2D emissions, if careful manual operating practices are used.” Moreover, ARRL commits to the necessary dissemination of “best practices” information to the amateur community on a timely basis and to the adoption and publication of a comprehensive band plan for these channels that will maintain maximum flexibility in Amateur use without interference. Lastly, the Commission adopts certain operational rules, which will serve to ensure that the new emission types are used in a manner that promotes continued shared use of the band by all. do you listen to your radio on the digital modes? or just use the waterfall?
>
> Seannon AG0NY
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> (ii) The following requirements also apply:
>
> (A) When transmitting the phone, RTTY, and data emissions, the suppressed carrier frequency may be set as specified in § 97.303(h).
>
> (B) The control operator of a station transmitting data or RTTY emissions must exercise care to limit the length of transmission so as to avoid causing harmful interference to United States Government stations.
>
> 8. Section 97.313 is amended by revising paragraphs (f) and (i) to read as follows.
>
> § 97.313
> Transmitter power standards.
> * * * * *
>
> (f) No station may transmit with a transmitter power exceeding 50 W PEP on the UHF 70 cm band from an area specified in paragraph (a) of footnote US270 in § 2.106, unless expressly authorized by the FCC after mutual agreement, on a case-by-case basis, between the District Director of the applicable field facility and the military area frequency coordinator at the applicable military base. An Earth station or telecommand station, however, may transmit on the 435-438 MHz segment with a maximum of 611 W effective radiated power (1 kW equivalent isotropically radiated power) without the authorization otherwise required. The transmitting antenna elevation angle between the lower half-power (−3 dB relative to the peak or antenna bore sight) point and the horizon must always be greater than 10°.
>
> * * * * *
>
> (i) No station may transmit with an effective radiated power (ERP) exceeding 100 W PEP on the 60 m band. For the purpose of computing ERP, the transmitter PEP will be multiplied by the antenna gain relative to a half-wave dipole antenna. A half-wave dipole antenna will be presumed to have a gain of 1 (0 dBd). Licensees using other antennas must maintain in their station records either the antenna manufacturer's data on the antenna gain or calculations of the antenna gain.
>
> * * * * *
>
> Footnotes
>
> 1. The RFA, see 5 U.S.C. 601-612, has been amended by the Small Business Regulatory Enforcement Fairness Act of 1996 (SBREFA), Public Law 104-121, Title II, 110 Stat. 857 (1996).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 2. 5 U.S.C. 605(b).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 3. 5 U.S.C. 601(6).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 4. 5 U.S.C. 601(3) (incorporating by reference the definition of “small business concern” in the Small Business Act, 15 U.S.C. 632). Pursuant to 5 U.S.C. 601(3), the statutory definition of a small business applies “unless an agency, after consultation with the Office of Advocacy of the Small Business Administration and after opportunity for public comment, establishes one or more definitions of such term which are appropriate to the activities of the agency and publishes such definition(s) in the Federal Register.”
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 5. 15 U.S.C. 632.
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 6. See 5 U.S.C. 605(b).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 7. See 5 U.S.C. 801(a)(1)(A).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 8. See 5 U.S.C. 604(b).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> BILLING CODE 6712-01-P
>
> BILLING CODE 6712-01-C
>
> [FR Doc. 2012-2477 Filed 2-2-12; 8:45 am]
>
> BILLING CODE 6712-01-P
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 10:07 PM Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...> wrote:
>>
>> "I'm not even entirely convinced that it's legal for us to use FT8 on
>> this band AT ALL because they don't specify it, they mention CW,
>> PSK31, PACTORIII (not AMTOR or any other similar modes) and
>> begrudgingly RTTY"
>>
>> You may not be entirely convinced, but the R&O is pretty clear:
>>
>> Finally, we agree with commenters that limiting digital operation to a
>> specific technique
>> discourages the further development of additional techniques, which
>> may be more efficient than those
>> currently in use. >>>Therefore, we permit an amateur station
>> transmitting RTTY emission 60H0J2B or data
>> emission 2K80J2D to use any unspecified digital code, subject to the
>> requirements of Section 97.309(b).<<<
>>
>> Note the highlighted part. Any unspecified digital code may be used.
>> FT8 falls under that and is not illegal on 60m.
>>
>> 73
>> Ria, N2RJ
>>
>> On Fri, 21 Feb 2020 at 22:42, Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hassan, I'm going to pick out a bit of info here... you stated that being able to use full bandwidth for SSB, but only the bandwidth of a single transmission on digital, which for this band is CW, (on off, not modulated) PSK31, PACTORIII, and RTTY, RTTY seems to have been added begrudgingly, but the important things of note are 1. WE ARE SECONDARY ON THIS BAND! , not primary, so we exist here only as long as we do things the way we won't get in trouble, we may get a slice of the band at some point, but we need to prove our ability to abide by the rules. 2, the band poster is pretty clear on the rules for this band,  it really is, 3. when you consider the types of use the primary users of the band have for it, (governmental) it makes sense that it would be one station transmitting at a time, period, if you transmit over someone else's transmission, you are causing interference. if you can't hear the station, it's unintentional, if you do it and you KNOW there's someone transmitting, it's INTENTIONAL INTERFERENCE, and against FCC regs anyway...like if you're hearing a pileup and everyone's running 50 watts, and you decide to heck with them, I'm going to make this contact if it kills me and slam them with a beam and full legal limit, you're breaking the intent of the rules. going back to the use, we are secondary, if you have 35 stations clogging up the channel, it would take much more time to tell each person QRT than the one or two that it would be.
>> >
>> > think of it this way, we are "BORROWING" the car... what rules should you follow when you borrow the car? the ones the person that let you use the car has, along with all local laws... don't get it dirty, don't wreck it, don't leave dirty diapers or used condoms in it don't do something that makes the person that has the car say I don't think I want to let you borrow the car again.
>> >
>> > the rules on this band are restrictive for a reason, just as their own internal rules are on the band. I'm not even entirely convinced that it's legal for us to use FT8 on this band AT ALL because they don't specify it, they mention CW, PSK31, PACTORIII (not AMTOR or any other similar modes) and begrudgingly RTTY
>> >
>> > Seannon, AG0NY
>> >
>> > Only one signal at a time is permitted on any channel." (From ARRL Band Poster)
>> > http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/Band%20Chart/Band%20Chart%20-%2011X17%20Color.pdf
>> >
>> > More on Center of Channel ( 1500 Hz) Requirement:
>> >
>> > "With your PSK31 software display configured to indicate audio frequencies, click your mouse cursor at the 1500 Hz mark (see below). With your radio in the USB mode, this marker indicates the center of the channel and it is the frequency on which you should be transmitting."
>> >
>> > There is no special exemption for FT8, the same center channel rule applies.
>> >
>> > In Summary from the ARRL:
>> >
>> > 1. Only one station may transmit at a time.
>> > 2. They must be at he CENTER of the allocated channel (1500 Hz)
>> > 3. NTIA has defined "on channel" as precisely 1.5 kHz below the assigned channel frequency.
>> >
>> > These are highly restrictive and have NOT been enforced. I posted my initial "Be Careful" message, because I was warned by someone familiar with the upcoming ARRL take-over of the FCC certified Monitoring Program, that once the new program had officially started : ENFORCEMENT WOULD BE FORTHCOMING and the enforcement will include referrals to the FCC for action.
>> >
>> > Unfortunately, the comment below reflects the attitude of many USA amateurs:
>> >
>> >  "If the FCC is that concerned about legitimate FT8 use within that 2.8 KHz BW, they need to clarify their own rules and rationale and make this clarification known.  Because right now, its as clear as mud.  "Field Day" for lawyers, so to speak."
>> >
>> > But the rules ARE clear here, there's a power level, compared to known quantity, they specifically give both CW center frequencies and USB frequencies as "Channels" they also give specific emissions types that are allowed, also, don't transmit when you can hear a station transmitting (only one station transmitting at any time) now, as for the rationale? that's not for us really, we have the rules to follow.
>> >
>> > As a result,  the 60m requirements for digital, (FT8 included), have been summarily ignored if not outright violated. I, myself did so, because I did not understand how one could reasonably operate a full SSB bandwidth and that was ok, but could not use the entire 2.8 kHz bandwidth for multiple narrow band FT8 transmissions. It makes NO sense. But....the rule is unforgiving and I have been told they are going to enforce it.
>> > It makes much more sense when you consider the government as primary, with us as secondary, it would take much more time to contact 20-30 stations to tell them to QRT than one or two governments would not try to stuff a ton of traffic in a single channel like this, they go for reliable communications over efficiency, unlike hams
>> >
>> >
>> > Only one signal at a time is permitted on any channel." (From ARRL Band Poster)
>> > http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/Band%20Chart/Band%20Chart%20-%2011X17%20Color.pdf
>> >
>> > More on Center of Channel ( 1500 Hz) Requirement:
>> >
>> > "With your PSK31 software display configured to indicate audio frequencies, click your mouse cursor at the 1500 Hz mark (see below). With your radio in the USB mode, this marker indicates the center of the channel and it is the frequency on which you should be transmitting."
>> >
>> > There is no special exemption for FT8, the same center channel rule applies.
>> >
>> > In Summary from the ARRL:
>> >
>> > 1. Only one station may transmit at a time.
>> > 2. They must be at he CENTER of the allocated channel (1500 Hz)
>> > 3. NTIA has defined "on channel" as precisely 1.5 kHz below the assigned channel frequency.
>> >
>> > These are highly restrictive and have NOT been enforced. I posted my initial "Be Careful" message, because I was warned by someone familiar with the upcoming ARRL take-over of the FCC certified Monitoring Program, that once the new program had officially started : ENFORCEMENT WOULD BE FORTHCOMING and the enforcement will include referrals to the FCC for action.
>> >
>> > Unfortunately, the comment below reflects the attitude of many USA amateurs:
>> >
>> >  "If the FCC is that concerned about legitimate FT8 use within that 2.8 KHz BW, they need to clarify their own rules and rationale and make this clarification known.  Because right now, its as clear as mud.  "Field Day" for lawyers, so to speak."
>> > The rules are pretty well spelled out, look at the chart above, there's channel info and conversions, , center channels, power requirements in relation to a specific antenna, and emissions modes (PSK31, PACTORIII not AMTOR or similar modes and RTTY, so it's questionable as to the legality of FT8 here anyway.
>> > As a result,  the 60m requirements for digital, (FT8 included), have been summarily ignored if not outright violated. I, myself did so, because I did not understand how one could reasonably operate a full SSB bandwidth and that was ok, but could not use the entire 2.8 kHz bandwidth for multiple narrow band FT8 transmissions. It makes NO sense. But....the rule is unforgiving and I have been told they are going to enforce it.
>> > It makes a lot more sense when you consider the PRIMARY on the band, and not us as amateurs that are secondary. governments would use this as close to a clear channel for simplicity's sake especially true in emergency communications, or wartime, so, if you hear someone transmitting, wait, don't transmit on top of them, it could be life or death. We as hams like to make the case for efficiency, the government for reliable communications
>> >
>> > I have advocated one thing and one thing only: Be Careful. I don't have horse this race. It would be a shame, however, if we lost this allocation or someone would get a QSL card from the FCC because they refused to exercise some caution in the matter.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I have advocated one thing and one thing only: Be Careful. I don't have horse this race. It would be a shame, however, if we lost this allocation or someone would get a QSL card from the FCC because they refused to exercise some caution in the matter.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 7:55 AM Hasan Schiers N0AN <hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> From the ARRL:
>> >> These are channel-center frequencies, not the ones you tune your radio to. The NTIA told the FCC that hams "must assure that their signal is transmitted on the channel-center frequency." This means the amateur signal must be centered within the 2.8-kHz-wide channel. The FCC has provided scant guidance beyond suggesting--in a footnote that follows the NTIA's advice--that amateurs tune 1.5 kHz below the center-channel frequencies to be "on channel." Amateurs need to be sure that the tuning display readout reflects transmitted (ie, carrier) frequency (most do). Consult your transceiver's manual if you're not sure.
>> >>
>> >> From the ARRL:
>> >> In addition, the FCC continues to require that all digital transmissions be centered on the channel-center frequencies, which the Report and Order defines as being 1.5 kHz above the suppressed carrier frequency of a transceiver operated in the Upper Sideband (USB) mode. This is typically the frequency shown on the frequency display.
>> >>
>> >> (Note that this does not say 1580, 1320, 700, ...it says 1.5 kHz) my comment, not ARRL's)
>> >>
>> >> http://www.arrl.org/60m-channel-allocation
>> >> "Operating at strict channel-center frequencies may come as a disappointment to many, but cooperating with the NTIA is key to expanded privileges in the future.
>> >> The channel center frequencies are":..snipped...60 meters
>> >>
>> >> "Only one signal at a time is permitted on any channel." (From ARRL Band Poster)
>> >> http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/Band%20Chart/Band%20Chart%20-%2011X17%20Color.pdf
>> >>
>> >> More on Center of Channel ( 1500 Hz) Requirement:
>> >>
>> >> "With your PSK31 software display configured to indicate audio frequencies, click your mouse cursor at the 1500 Hz mark (see below). With your radio in the USB mode, this marker indicates the center of the channel and it is the frequency on which you should be transmitting."
>> >>
>> >> There is no special exemption for FT8, the same center channel rule applies.
>> >>
>> >> In Summary from the ARRL:
>> >>
>> >> 1. Only one station may transmit at a time.
>> >> 2. They must be at he CENTER of the allocated channel (1500 Hz)
>> >> 3. NTIA has defined "on channel" as precisely 1.5 kHz below the assigned channel frequency.
>> >>
>> >> These are highly restrictive and have NOT been enforced. I posted my initial "Be Careful" message, because I was warned by someone familiar with the upcoming ARRL take-over of the FCC certified Monitoring Program, that once the new program had officially started : ENFORCEMENT WOULD BE FORTHCOMING and the enforcement will include referrals to the FCC for action.
>> >>
>> >> Unfortunately, the comment below reflects the attitude of many USA amateurs:
>> >>
>> >>  "If the FCC is that concerned about legitimate FT8 use within that 2.8 KHz BW, they need to clarify their own rules and rationale and make this clarification known.  Because right now, its as clear as mud.  "Field Day" for lawyers, so to speak."
>> >>
>> >> As a result,  the 60m requirements for digital, (FT8 included), have been summarily ignored if not outright violated. I, myself did so, because I did not understand how one could reasonably operate a full SSB bandwidth and that was ok, but could not use the entire 2.8 kHz bandwidth for multiple narrow band FT8 transmissions. It makes NO sense. But....the rule is unforgiving and I have been told they are going to enforce it.
>> >>
>> >> I have advocated one thing and one thing only: Be Careful. I don't have horse this race. It would be a shame, however, if we lost this allocation or someone would get a QSL card from the FCC because they refused to exercise some caution in the matter.
>> >>
>> >> 73, N0AN
>> >> Hasan
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 5:41 AM Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Also, it clearly states that no more than one station transmit at any given time thus also limiting to a conversational rather than a transactional contact type. (If you hear a conversation, don't transmit, if you hear a CQ, answer it unless you hear someone else answering)
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Seannon, ag0ny
>> >>>
>> >>> On Thu, Feb 20, 2020, 05:15 Nc8q-mesh@... <nc8q-mesh@...> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On 2/20/20 5:17 AM, Hasan Schiers N0AN wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Again, ARRL have *on multiple occasions* reported communications from
>> >>>> FCC Enforcement staff (and NTIA who are responsible for the "60 M
>> >>>> band") reminding US licensed amateurs that 97.303(h) requires using
>> >>>> *identical* audio frequency and carrier offsets so that the transmitted
>> >>>> signal is centered exactly on the middle of the assigned "Channel" -
>> >>>> not generating a random offset within a 2.7 KHz "band".
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> IMHO, this discussion of operating FT8 on 60 meters deserves its own thread.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>  From looking at the waterfall display (Wide Graph),
>> >>>> it seems to me that a FT8 Tx frequency of 1500 indicates signals from
>> >>>> 'dial frequency + 1500 Hz' to 'dial frequency + ~1548 Hz'.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The get TX signals centered on 1500 Hz,
>> >>>>  would it not require setting WSJTX to 1476 Hz ?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Chuck
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > “It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”
>> >
>> > Nikola Tesla
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
> --
> “It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”
>
> Nikola Tesla
>
>
>



--

“It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”

Nikola Tesla

 

 

 



--

“It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”

Nikola Tesla

 

 

 




--
Ken - K4XL
BoatAnchor Manual Archive
BAMA - http://bama.edebris.com


locked Re: Operating guidelines for FT8

Ken - K4XL
 

it might be time for ARRL to remind the FCC of our needs in this area.
Tnx Jim and Ria,
Ken - K4XL


On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 7:41 AM Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...> wrote:

Thank you Jim.

73
Ria, N2RJ 

On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 5:44 PM James F. Boehner, MD via Groups.Io <jboehner01=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

If I can offer a bit of information:

 

http://www.arrl.org/news/arrl-reiterates-its-case-for-new-band-at-5-mhz

 

Hope this helps!

 

’73 de JIM N2ZZ

 

From: WSJTX@groups.io [mailto:WSJTX@groups.io] On Behalf Of Ria, N2RJ
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2020 3:04 PM
To: WSJTX@groups.io
Subject: Re: [WSJTX] 60 meters: Operating guidelines for FT8

 

We haven’t petitioned the FCC and NTIA, AFAIK. 

 

(but I can verify that)

 

73

Ria, N2RJ 

 

On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 1:35 PM Larry Burke <wi5a@...> wrote:

Thank you, Ria, for your informed response!

 

In your related e-mail you state: “Some countries do not have channelization on 60m. In 9Y I can use 1.5kw from 5.25 to 5.45MHz without restriction. It’s just another HF band.” Exactly. Also interesting that this is possible in the Americas (Trinidad & Tobago, Grenada, etc.)  with no apparent issues.

 

Are there any efforts underway to make the band continuous in the US? The IARU recommended this back in 2015, albeit implemented at 15 watts in most countries. Some basic reg changes would sure clear up much of the confusion with the use of FT8 and other modes on this band.

 

BTW, a good compilation of authorizations by country can be found at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/60-meter_band

 

 

Larry K5RK

 

 

From: WSJTX@groups.io <WSJTX@groups.io> On Behalf Of Ria, N2RJ
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2020 7:42 AM
To: WSJTX@groups.io
Subject: Re: [WSJTX] 60 meters: Operating guidelines for FT8

 

I’m not aware of any complaints by the NTIA against radio amateurs for using FT8 on 60m.

The volunteer monitor program nor the FCC are sending out violation notices. I keep abreast of enforcement issues and I’ve asked numerous departments at ARRL. This isn’t a concern with anyone there.

ARRL doesn’t have any awards for 60m contacts. So anyone doing 60m contacts there does it for their own enjoyment.

73
Ria, N2RJ 

 





--
Ken - K4XL
BoatAnchor Manual Archive
BAMA - http://bama.edebris.com


locked Re: 60 meters: Operating guidelines for FT8

benn pedersen <oz3ben@...>
 

Can i be usubscribe this Group…it´s only spam.

Oz3ben

 

Sendt fra Mail til Windows 10

 

Fra: Ria, N2RJ
Sendt: 22. februar 2020 07:44
Til: WSJTX@groups.io
Emne: Re: [WSJTX] 60 meters: Operating guidelines for FT8

 

That’s not what the regulations say. 

 

Also, FCC and NTIA have no jurisdiction on foreign hams, who are allowed generally to operate where they pleAse. A lot of the traffic is DX

 

Ria

N2RJ 

 

On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 1:32 AM Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:

not when it's used like it is on the other bands

there's only ONE spot (1500hz) we US hams can transmit on, and cannot when others are transmitting on the channel that's right there on the band chart.

 

Seannon AG0NY

 

On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 12:15 AM Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...> wrote:

97.307(f)(14) has the table of allowed emissions for 60m. It states that 2K80J2D is an allowed emission type. FT8 is a J2D emission that is less than 2.8kHz in bandwidth therefore it falls under that.

 

Pactor-3 and PSK31 were only listed as examples, presumably because they were popular at the time. 

 

FT8 is absolutely legal on 60m. 

 

73

Ria, N2RJ 

 

On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 12:53 AM Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:

except the R&O is not the law, CFAR is, it specifically states PACTORIII, PSK31 CW and RTTY not all iterations of these emissions codes, so, no, it's NOT clear there, but, that's my interpretation, it's questionable to me that FT8 is appropriate. if you JUST go by the emissions code, then it's legal go ahead, but another thing they're VERY specific on, which is kinda antithetical to how FT8 works, is "no more than one transmission on the channel at any time" and you can only operate on the exact frequency, not wherever you want in the passband.

take it how you want, just please don't ruin it for the rest of us?

Seannon AG0NY

 

On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 11:24 PM Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...> wrote:

The R&O is crystal clear.

28. Finally, we agree with commenters that limiting digital operation
to a specific technique
discourages the further development of additional techniques, which
may be more efficient than those
currently in use. Therefore, we permit an amateur station transmitting
RTTY emission 60H0J2B or data
emission 2K80J2D to use any unspecified digital code, subject to the
requirements of Section 97.309(b).

Again, "we permit an amateur station transmitting RTTY emission 60H0J2B or data
emission 2K80J2D to use any unspecified digital code, subject to the
requirements of Section 97.309(b)" - this means that ANY digital code
can be used, provided it's not obscured (encrypted),

2K80J2D is simply "Data" which covers FT8 and is an allowed emission type.

Here is a refresher on how to read the emission types:

2K80 - Bandwidth not to exceed 2.8kHz (meaning, any bandwidth up to 2.80kHz
J - Amplitude Modulation, Single Sideband, Suppressed Carrier - Check
2 - Digital with modulation - Check
D - Data, telecommand or telemetry - Check

Any reasonable person can therefore conclude that FT8 is not illegal
on 60 metres under US rules..

Hope this helps.

73
Ria, N2RJ


On Sat, 22 Feb 2020 at 00:04, Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:
>
> from the R&O here... https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2012/02/03/2012-2477https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2012/02/03/2012-2477/amateur-radio-use-of-the-allocation-at-5-mhz/amateur-radio-use-of-the-allocation-at-5-mhz
>
>
> 9. Under the existing rules, only upper sideband voice transmissions are permitted in the 60 meter band. In the NPRM, the Commission proposed to authorize the use of three additional emission designators in the band: CW emission 150HA1A, which is Morse telegraphy by means of on-off keying, and data emissions 2K80J2D and 60H0J2B. In § 97.307(f)(14)(i) of the proposed rules, the Commission restricts emission designator 2K80J2D to data using PACTOR-III technique and emission designator 60H0J2B to data using PSK31 technique. The Commission also sought comment on whether amateur stations could be permitted to transmit emission types in addition to those requested by ARRL in the 60 meter band without increasing the likelihood of interference to primary users. As discussed, the Commission adopts its proposal to allow the use of the three additional emission designators.
>
> 10. Emission Designators. Our proposal drew a wide range of responses. Although the majority of commenters fully or generally support the proposals that the Commission made in the NPRM, many commenters expressed concerns about some or all of the proposed new emission designators. Commenters were most supportive of the proposed addition of emission designators 150HA1A and 60H0J2B. By contrast, the proposal to add emission type 2K80J2D proved much more divisive. The record also includes a few commenters who are skeptical that additional emission types are appropriate for the 60 meter band.
>
> 12. Specific Techniques of the Data Emissions. Commenters strongly believe that the use of the emission designators 60H0J2B and 2K80J2D should not be restricted to the specific techniques of PSK31 and PACTOR-III, respectively. This approach differs from what was proposed in the NPRM. This is why I question the legality of FT8, it SPECIFICALLY STATES EVERYWHERE PACTORIII, not PACTORIII and other2k80J2D emissions. specifically PACTORIII and PSK31. I agree it "SHOULDN'T matter, but it quite possibly DOES matter. also, it SPECIFICALLY STATES PSK31, CW, PACTORIII and RTTY on the band charts
>
> 14. The Commission recognizes that many commenters are concerned that the addition of new emission types— data emission types in general and PACTOR-III specifically—holds the risk of reducing the utility of these channels for many amateurs, especially for those who may not readily recognize data transmissions and may avoid use of the channels out of an abundance of caution. The Commission concludes that there are ways to minimize any potential disruption that the new emission types could cause. ARRL notes that amateur “stations typically utilize relatively short transmissions in telegraphy and are able to manually detect the presence of a non-Amateur signal within the channel bandwidth while operating in that mode” and that the “same is true of 60H0J2B and 2K80J2D emissions, if careful manual operating practices are used.” Moreover, ARRL commits to the necessary dissemination of “best practices” information to the amateur community on a timely basis and to the adoption and publication of a comprehensive band plan for these channels that will maintain maximum flexibility in Amateur use without interference. Lastly, the Commission adopts certain operational rules, which will serve to ensure that the new emission types are used in a manner that promotes continued shared use of the band by all. do you listen to your radio on the digital modes? or just use the waterfall?
>
> Seannon AG0NY
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> (ii) The following requirements also apply:
>
> (A) When transmitting the phone, RTTY, and data emissions, the suppressed carrier frequency may be set as specified in § 97.303(h).
>
> (B) The control operator of a station transmitting data or RTTY emissions must exercise care to limit the length of transmission so as to avoid causing harmful interference to United States Government stations.
>
> 8. Section 97.313 is amended by revising paragraphs (f) and (i) to read as follows.
>
> § 97.313
> Transmitter power standards.
> * * * * *
>
> (f) No station may transmit with a transmitter power exceeding 50 W PEP on the UHF 70 cm band from an area specified in paragraph (a) of footnote US270 in § 2.106, unless expressly authorized by the FCC after mutual agreement, on a case-by-case basis, between the District Director of the applicable field facility and the military area frequency coordinator at the applicable military base. An Earth station or telecommand station, however, may transmit on the 435-438 MHz segment with a maximum of 611 W effective radiated power (1 kW equivalent isotropically radiated power) without the authorization otherwise required. The transmitting antenna elevation angle between the lower half-power (−3 dB relative to the peak or antenna bore sight) point and the horizon must always be greater than 10°.
>
> * * * * *
>
> (i) No station may transmit with an effective radiated power (ERP) exceeding 100 W PEP on the 60 m band. For the purpose of computing ERP, the transmitter PEP will be multiplied by the antenna gain relative to a half-wave dipole antenna. A half-wave dipole antenna will be presumed to have a gain of 1 (0 dBd). Licensees using other antennas must maintain in their station records either the antenna manufacturer's data on the antenna gain or calculations of the antenna gain.
>
> * * * * *
>
> Footnotes
>
> 1. The RFA, see 5 U.S.C. 601-612, has been amended by the Small Business Regulatory Enforcement Fairness Act of 1996 (SBREFA), Public Law 104-121, Title II, 110 Stat. 857 (1996).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 2. 5 U.S.C. 605(b).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 3. 5 U.S.C. 601(6).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 4. 5 U.S.C. 601(3) (incorporating by reference the definition of “small business concern” in the Small Business Act, 15 U.S.C. 632). Pursuant to 5 U.S.C. 601(3), the statutory definition of a small business applies “unless an agency, after consultation with the Office of Advocacy of the Small Business Administration and after opportunity for public comment, establishes one or more definitions of such term which are appropriate to the activities of the agency and publishes such definition(s) in the Federal Register.”
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 5. 15 U.S.C. 632.
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 6. See 5 U.S.C. 605(b).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 7. See 5 U.S.C. 801(a)(1)(A).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 8. See 5 U.S.C. 604(b).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> BILLING CODE 6712-01-P
>
> BILLING CODE 6712-01-C
>
> [FR Doc. 2012-2477 Filed 2-2-12; 8:45 am]
>
> BILLING CODE 6712-01-P
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 10:07 PM Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...> wrote:
>>
>> "I'm not even entirely convinced that it's legal for us to use FT8 on
>> this band AT ALL because they don't specify it, they mention CW,
>> PSK31, PACTORIII (not AMTOR or any other similar modes) and
>> begrudgingly RTTY"
>>
>> You may not be entirely convinced, but the R&O is pretty clear:
>>
>> Finally, we agree with commenters that limiting digital operation to a
>> specific technique
>> discourages the further development of additional techniques, which
>> may be more efficient than those
>> currently in use. >>>Therefore, we permit an amateur station
>> transmitting RTTY emission 60H0J2B or data
>> emission 2K80J2D to use any unspecified digital code, subject to the
>> requirements of Section 97.309(b).<<<
>>
>> Note the highlighted part. Any unspecified digital code may be used.
>> FT8 falls under that and is not illegal on 60m.
>>
>> 73
>> Ria, N2RJ
>>
>> On Fri, 21 Feb 2020 at 22:42, Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hassan, I'm going to pick out a bit of info here... you stated that being able to use full bandwidth for SSB, but only the bandwidth of a single transmission on digital, which for this band is CW, (on off, not modulated) PSK31, PACTORIII, and RTTY, RTTY seems to have been added begrudgingly, but the important things of note are 1. WE ARE SECONDARY ON THIS BAND! , not primary, so we exist here only as long as we do things the way we won't get in trouble, we may get a slice of the band at some point, but we need to prove our ability to abide by the rules. 2, the band poster is pretty clear on the rules for this band,  it really is, 3. when you consider the types of use the primary users of the band have for it, (governmental) it makes sense that it would be one station transmitting at a time, period, if you transmit over someone else's transmission, you are causing interference. if you can't hear the station, it's unintentional, if you do it and you KNOW there's someone transmitting, it's INTENTIONAL INTERFERENCE, and against FCC regs anyway...like if you're hearing a pileup and everyone's running 50 watts, and you decide to heck with them, I'm going to make this contact if it kills me and slam them with a beam and full legal limit, you're breaking the intent of the rules. going back to the use, we are secondary, if you have 35 stations clogging up the channel, it would take much more time to tell each person QRT than the one or two that it would be.
>> >
>> > think of it this way, we are "BORROWING" the car... what rules should you follow when you borrow the car? the ones the person that let you use the car has, along with all local laws... don't get it dirty, don't wreck it, don't leave dirty diapers or used condoms in it don't do something that makes the person that has the car say I don't think I want to let you borrow the car again.
>> >
>> > the rules on this band are restrictive for a reason, just as their own internal rules are on the band. I'm not even entirely convinced that it's legal for us to use FT8 on this band AT ALL because they don't specify it, they mention CW, PSK31, PACTORIII (not AMTOR or any other similar modes) and begrudgingly RTTY
>> >
>> > Seannon, AG0NY
>> >
>> > Only one signal at a time is permitted on any channel." (From ARRL Band Poster)
>> > http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/Band%20Chart/Band%20Chart%20-%2011X17%20Color.pdf
>> >
>> > More on Center of Channel ( 1500 Hz) Requirement:
>> >
>> > "With your PSK31 software display configured to indicate audio frequencies, click your mouse cursor at the 1500 Hz mark (see below). With your radio in the USB mode, this marker indicates the center of the channel and it is the frequency on which you should be transmitting."
>> >
>> > There is no special exemption for FT8, the same center channel rule applies.
>> >
>> > In Summary from the ARRL:
>> >
>> > 1. Only one station may transmit at a time.
>> > 2. They must be at he CENTER of the allocated channel (1500 Hz)
>> > 3. NTIA has defined "on channel" as precisely 1.5 kHz below the assigned channel frequency.
>> >
>> > These are highly restrictive and have NOT been enforced. I posted my initial "Be Careful" message, because I was warned by someone familiar with the upcoming ARRL take-over of the FCC certified Monitoring Program, that once the new program had officially started : ENFORCEMENT WOULD BE FORTHCOMING and the enforcement will include referrals to the FCC for action.
>> >
>> > Unfortunately, the comment below reflects the attitude of many USA amateurs:
>> >
>> >  "If the FCC is that concerned about legitimate FT8 use within that 2.8 KHz BW, they need to clarify their own rules and rationale and make this clarification known.  Because right now, its as clear as mud.  "Field Day" for lawyers, so to speak."
>> >
>> > But the rules ARE clear here, there's a power level, compared to known quantity, they specifically give both CW center frequencies and USB frequencies as "Channels" they also give specific emissions types that are allowed, also, don't transmit when you can hear a station transmitting (only one station transmitting at any time) now, as for the rationale? that's not for us really, we have the rules to follow.
>> >
>> > As a result,  the 60m requirements for digital, (FT8 included), have been summarily ignored if not outright violated. I, myself did so, because I did not understand how one could reasonably operate a full SSB bandwidth and that was ok, but could not use the entire 2.8 kHz bandwidth for multiple narrow band FT8 transmissions. It makes NO sense. But....the rule is unforgiving and I have been told they are going to enforce it.
>> > It makes much more sense when you consider the government as primary, with us as secondary, it would take much more time to contact 20-30 stations to tell them to QRT than one or two governments would not try to stuff a ton of traffic in a single channel like this, they go for reliable communications over efficiency, unlike hams
>> >
>> >
>> > Only one signal at a time is permitted on any channel." (From ARRL Band Poster)
>> > http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/Band%20Chart/Band%20Chart%20-%2011X17%20Color.pdf
>> >
>> > More on Center of Channel ( 1500 Hz) Requirement:
>> >
>> > "With your PSK31 software display configured to indicate audio frequencies, click your mouse cursor at the 1500 Hz mark (see below). With your radio in the USB mode, this marker indicates the center of the channel and it is the frequency on which you should be transmitting."
>> >
>> > There is no special exemption for FT8, the same center channel rule applies.
>> >
>> > In Summary from the ARRL:
>> >
>> > 1. Only one station may transmit at a time.
>> > 2. They must be at he CENTER of the allocated channel (1500 Hz)
>> > 3. NTIA has defined "on channel" as precisely 1.5 kHz below the assigned channel frequency.
>> >
>> > These are highly restrictive and have NOT been enforced. I posted my initial "Be Careful" message, because I was warned by someone familiar with the upcoming ARRL take-over of the FCC certified Monitoring Program, that once the new program had officially started : ENFORCEMENT WOULD BE FORTHCOMING and the enforcement will include referrals to the FCC for action.
>> >
>> > Unfortunately, the comment below reflects the attitude of many USA amateurs:
>> >
>> >  "If the FCC is that concerned about legitimate FT8 use within that 2.8 KHz BW, they need to clarify their own rules and rationale and make this clarification known.  Because right now, its as clear as mud.  "Field Day" for lawyers, so to speak."
>> > The rules are pretty well spelled out, look at the chart above, there's channel info and conversions, , center channels, power requirements in relation to a specific antenna, and emissions modes (PSK31, PACTORIII not AMTOR or similar modes and RTTY, so it's questionable as to the legality of FT8 here anyway.
>> > As a result,  the 60m requirements for digital, (FT8 included), have been summarily ignored if not outright violated. I, myself did so, because I did not understand how one could reasonably operate a full SSB bandwidth and that was ok, but could not use the entire 2.8 kHz bandwidth for multiple narrow band FT8 transmissions. It makes NO sense. But....the rule is unforgiving and I have been told they are going to enforce it.
>> > It makes a lot more sense when you consider the PRIMARY on the band, and not us as amateurs that are secondary. governments would use this as close to a clear channel for simplicity's sake especially true in emergency communications, or wartime, so, if you hear someone transmitting, wait, don't transmit on top of them, it could be life or death. We as hams like to make the case for efficiency, the government for reliable communications
>> >
>> > I have advocated one thing and one thing only: Be Careful. I don't have horse this race. It would be a shame, however, if we lost this allocation or someone would get a QSL card from the FCC because they refused to exercise some caution in the matter.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I have advocated one thing and one thing only: Be Careful. I don't have horse this race. It would be a shame, however, if we lost this allocation or someone would get a QSL card from the FCC because they refused to exercise some caution in the matter.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 7:55 AM Hasan Schiers N0AN <hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> From the ARRL:
>> >> These are channel-center frequencies, not the ones you tune your radio to. The NTIA told the FCC that hams "must assure that their signal is transmitted on the channel-center frequency." This means the amateur signal must be centered within the 2.8-kHz-wide channel. The FCC has provided scant guidance beyond suggesting--in a footnote that follows the NTIA's advice--that amateurs tune 1.5 kHz below the center-channel frequencies to be "on channel." Amateurs need to be sure that the tuning display readout reflects transmitted (ie, carrier) frequency (most do). Consult your transceiver's manual if you're not sure.
>> >>
>> >> From the ARRL:
>> >> In addition, the FCC continues to require that all digital transmissions be centered on the channel-center frequencies, which the Report and Order defines as being 1.5 kHz above the suppressed carrier frequency of a transceiver operated in the Upper Sideband (USB) mode. This is typically the frequency shown on the frequency display.
>> >>
>> >> (Note that this does not say 1580, 1320, 700, ...it says 1.5 kHz) my comment, not ARRL's)
>> >>
>> >> http://www.arrl.org/60m-channel-allocation
>> >> "Operating at strict channel-center frequencies may come as a disappointment to many, but cooperating with the NTIA is key to expanded privileges in the future.
>> >> The channel center frequencies are":..snipped...60 meters
>> >>
>> >> "Only one signal at a time is permitted on any channel." (From ARRL Band Poster)
>> >> http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/Band%20Chart/Band%20Chart%20-%2011X17%20Color.pdf
>> >>
>> >> More on Center of Channel ( 1500 Hz) Requirement:
>> >>
>> >> "With your PSK31 software display configured to indicate audio frequencies, click your mouse cursor at the 1500 Hz mark (see below). With your radio in the USB mode, this marker indicates the center of the channel and it is the frequency on which you should be transmitting."
>> >>
>> >> There is no special exemption for FT8, the same center channel rule applies.
>> >>
>> >> In Summary from the ARRL:
>> >>
>> >> 1. Only one station may transmit at a time.
>> >> 2. They must be at he CENTER of the allocated channel (1500 Hz)
>> >> 3. NTIA has defined "on channel" as precisely 1.5 kHz below the assigned channel frequency.
>> >>
>> >> These are highly restrictive and have NOT been enforced. I posted my initial "Be Careful" message, because I was warned by someone familiar with the upcoming ARRL take-over of the FCC certified Monitoring Program, that once the new program had officially started : ENFORCEMENT WOULD BE FORTHCOMING and the enforcement will include referrals to the FCC for action.
>> >>
>> >> Unfortunately, the comment below reflects the attitude of many USA amateurs:
>> >>
>> >>  "If the FCC is that concerned about legitimate FT8 use within that 2.8 KHz BW, they need to clarify their own rules and rationale and make this clarification known.  Because right now, its as clear as mud.  "Field Day" for lawyers, so to speak."
>> >>
>> >> As a result,  the 60m requirements for digital, (FT8 included), have been summarily ignored if not outright violated. I, myself did so, because I did not understand how one could reasonably operate a full SSB bandwidth and that was ok, but could not use the entire 2.8 kHz bandwidth for multiple narrow band FT8 transmissions. It makes NO sense. But....the rule is unforgiving and I have been told they are going to enforce it.
>> >>
>> >> I have advocated one thing and one thing only: Be Careful. I don't have horse this race. It would be a shame, however, if we lost this allocation or someone would get a QSL card from the FCC because they refused to exercise some caution in the matter.
>> >>
>> >> 73, N0AN
>> >> Hasan
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 5:41 AM Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Also, it clearly states that no more than one station transmit at any given time thus also limiting to a conversational rather than a transactional contact type. (If you hear a conversation, don't transmit, if you hear a CQ, answer it unless you hear someone else answering)
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Seannon, ag0ny
>> >>>
>> >>> On Thu, Feb 20, 2020, 05:15 Nc8q-mesh@... <nc8q-mesh@...> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On 2/20/20 5:17 AM, Hasan Schiers N0AN wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Again, ARRL have *on multiple occasions* reported communications from
>> >>>> FCC Enforcement staff (and NTIA who are responsible for the "60 M
>> >>>> band") reminding US licensed amateurs that 97.303(h) requires using
>> >>>> *identical* audio frequency and carrier offsets so that the transmitted
>> >>>> signal is centered exactly on the middle of the assigned "Channel" -
>> >>>> not generating a random offset within a 2.7 KHz "band".
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> IMHO, this discussion of operating FT8 on 60 meters deserves its own thread.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>  From looking at the waterfall display (Wide Graph),
>> >>>> it seems to me that a FT8 Tx frequency of 1500 indicates signals from
>> >>>> 'dial frequency + 1500 Hz' to 'dial frequency + ~1548 Hz'.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The get TX signals centered on 1500 Hz,
>> >>>>  would it not require setting WSJTX to 1476 Hz ?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Chuck
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > “It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”
>> >
>> > Nikola Tesla
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
> --
> “It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”
>
> Nikola Tesla
>
>
>



--

“It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”

Nikola Tesla

 

 

 



--

“It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”

Nikola Tesla

 

 

 


locked Re: Operating guidelines for FT8

Ria, N2RJ
 


Thank you Jim.

73
Ria, N2RJ 


On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 5:44 PM James F. Boehner, MD via Groups.Io <jboehner01=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

If I can offer a bit of information:

 

http://www.arrl.org/news/arrl-reiterates-its-case-for-new-band-at-5-mhz

 

Hope this helps!

 

’73 de JIM N2ZZ

 

From: WSJTX@groups.io [mailto:WSJTX@groups.io] On Behalf Of Ria, N2RJ
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2020 3:04 PM
To: WSJTX@groups.io
Subject: Re: [WSJTX] 60 meters: Operating guidelines for FT8

 

We haven’t petitioned the FCC and NTIA, AFAIK. 

 

(but I can verify that)

 

73

Ria, N2RJ 

 

On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 1:35 PM Larry Burke <wi5a@...> wrote:

Thank you, Ria, for your informed response!

 

In your related e-mail you state: “Some countries do not have channelization on 60m. In 9Y I can use 1.5kw from 5.25 to 5.45MHz without restriction. It’s just another HF band.” Exactly. Also interesting that this is possible in the Americas (Trinidad & Tobago, Grenada, etc.)  with no apparent issues.

 

Are there any efforts underway to make the band continuous in the US? The IARU recommended this back in 2015, albeit implemented at 15 watts in most countries. Some basic reg changes would sure clear up much of the confusion with the use of FT8 and other modes on this band.

 

BTW, a good compilation of authorizations by country can be found at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/60-meter_band

 

 

Larry K5RK

 

 

From: WSJTX@groups.io <WSJTX@groups.io> On Behalf Of Ria, N2RJ
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2020 7:42 AM
To: WSJTX@groups.io
Subject: Re: [WSJTX] 60 meters: Operating guidelines for FT8

 

I’m not aware of any complaints by the NTIA against radio amateurs for using FT8 on 60m.

The volunteer monitor program nor the FCC are sending out violation notices. I keep abreast of enforcement issues and I’ve asked numerous departments at ARRL. This isn’t a concern with anyone there.

ARRL doesn’t have any awards for 60m contacts. So anyone doing 60m contacts there does it for their own enjoyment.

73
Ria, N2RJ 

 



locked Re: Computer to radio connection

neil_zampella <neilz@...>
 

Replace the Signalink with something else.     I'd find a combined CAT and audio cable system like the XGGCOMMS.com Digimode-1-Yaesu and an external USB soundcard.   This will give you full audio and CAT control.

Neil, KN3ILZ

On 2/21/2020 3:23 PM, Richard DeRose wrote:

The signial link is connected to the data on the radio No place left to connect the computer to.

Richard DeRose
561-441-6376
102 Blackjack Lane
Burleson, Texas 76028
KG5FNS

Life's journey is not
to arrive safely at the grave
in a well preserved body
but rather to skid in sideways
totally worn out, shouting
Holy Cow    What a ride.

On Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 10:47 AM Bob Lewis <aa4pb@...> wrote:

You have to add a connection between your rig’s CAT control and the computer. The SignaLink  provides audio and PTT connections only. It does not include any interface for rig control (frequency, mode, etc).

 

From: WSJTX@groups.io [mailto:WSJTX@groups.io] On Behalf Of Richard DeRose
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2020 9:11 AM
To: WSJTX@groups.io
Subject: [WSJTX] Computer to radio connection

 

I am using a PC with Windows 10 and WSJTX connected to a ft897 through a signal link. I cannot get the computer to connect to get the frequency. What settings are required.?

Dick DeRose
dderose911@...
561-441-6376
KG5FNS

Life's journey is not
to arrive safely at the grave
in a well preserved body,
but rather to skid in sideways,
totaly worn out, shouting
"Holy Cow.........What a ride!"




    


locked Re: Computer to radio connection

d_ziolkowski
 

Dick-

That's not correct. Cat is connected to port 2, Signalink is connected to port 3. see manual page 32

Dan KC2STA

On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 3:24 PM Richard DeRose <dderose911@...> wrote:
The signial link is connected to the data on the radio No place left to connect the computer to.

Richard DeRose
561-441-6376
102 Blackjack Lane
Burleson, Texas 76028
KG5FNS

Life's journey is not
to arrive safely at the grave
in a well preserved body
but rather to skid in sideways
totally worn out, shouting
Holy Cow    What a ride.

On Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 10:47 AM Bob Lewis <aa4pb@...> wrote:

You have to add a connection between your rig’s CAT control and the computer. The SignaLink  provides audio and PTT connections only. It does not include any interface for rig control (frequency, mode, etc).

 

From: WSJTX@groups.io [mailto:WSJTX@groups.io] On Behalf Of Richard DeRose
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2020 9:11 AM
To: WSJTX@groups.io
Subject: [WSJTX] Computer to radio connection

 

I am using a PC with Windows 10 and WSJTX connected to a ft897 through a signal link. I cannot get the computer to connect to get the frequency. What settings are required.?

Dick DeRose
dderose911@...
561-441-6376
KG5FNS

Life's journey is not
to arrive safely at the grave
in a well preserved body,
but rather to skid in sideways,
totaly worn out, shouting
"Holy Cow.........What a ride!"





--
Dan Ziolkowski KC2STA
SKCC #4290T
Ubuntu LINUX


locked Re: 60 meters: Operating - FT8

Seannon Baker (AG0NY)
 

lol


On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 12:20 AM Chuck Adams <cfadams@...> wrote:
Hey!  Has anybody asked about 60 meters and FT8?

-----Original Message-----
From: WSJTX@groups.io <WSJTX@groups.io> On Behalf Of K8BL BOB LIDDY
Sent: 22 February, 2020 1:19 AM
To: wsjtx@groups.io
Subject: Re: [WSJTX] 60 meters: Operating - FT8

I think we've just about killed this subject. If you couple of guys want to keep arguing minutia, spare us other hundreds and take it off-line already.  GEEEEESH!

de   Bob  K8BL/5







On Friday, February 21, 2020, 11:36:35 PM CST, Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <kd4iyi@...> wrote:





Umm, I think that you missed the point... YOU are the secondary user, they don't need to tell you anything, you just follow the rules in place and monitor the frequency, keep your TX on the correct frequency, and don't transmit if you have someone transmitting on that frequency. I'm assuming you're going to be transmitting on channel 3, be sure to use the correct dial frequency and lock your tx at 1500hz so you will be in compliance with the rules on that band...

Seannon AG0NY

On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 6:15 PM K8BL BOB LIDDY <k8bl@...> wrote:
> I'm considering operating FT8 on 60M this evening.
>
> How will Govt Users inform me of their planned usage so that I can go
> QRT?
>
> I hope my 10W to an end-fed LW at 20 Ft. doesn't cause too much
> interference.
>
> de  Bob  K8BL/5
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thursday, February 20, 2020, 04:02:30 PM CST, Bonnie KQ6XA <bonniekq6xa@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> The channel at 5357 kHz USB has constant FT8 transmissions, 24/7/365,
> worldwide. Currently, 5357-FT8 is not being shared properly by Secondary hams with Primary users.
>
> Solution: The developers of FT8 can add a lockout feature in FT8 for 1
> minute of silence at the top of every 5 minutes, when tuned to 5 MHz. This would provide a viable time window for Primary users to communicate.
> It also would avoid the Amateur Radio Service losing its valuable Secondary allocation on 60 meters.
>
> If the developers of FT8 don't act soon:
>
>     1. Primary users won't allow hams to continuously take over their
> allocation much longer.
>     2. Some Primary user will probably put multi-kilowatts on it to
> simply take their allocation back. (We can see this starting to happen
> already with the HF radars)
>     3. Primary users will oppose Amateur Service efforts at ITU
> conferences to increase the worldwide power allocation from 15 Watts to 100 Watts.
>     4. Governments which not approve allowing their hams to use 60
> meters, or will drastically curtail their use of it (see Australia)
> 5357 is the ONLY international Amateur Radio Service channel on 60 meters.
> Be nice to it.
>
> -Bonnie KQ6XA
>
>
>
>
>


--
“It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”

Nikola Tesla






--
“It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”

Nikola Tesla



locked Re: 60 meters: Operating guidelines for FT8

Seannon Baker (AG0NY)
 

Also, the rules regarding the center frequencies are not clear. (they are) FT8 doesn’t have a carrier. (yes it does, it's suppressed, but it's still the carrier frequency) It’s SSB suppressed carrier. It’s FSK and its signal shifts during transmission. The word “may” and not “required” is used. So the part about where 60m FT8 must operate dead center is not really backed by anything. it's backed by your own documentation http://www.arrl.org/60m-channel-allocation
"CW Operation CW operation must take place at the center of your chosen channel. This means that your transmitting frequency must be 1.5 kHz above the suppressed carrier frequency as specified in the Report and Order (see Table 1). The channel center frequencies are ...
Digital Operation
Our expanded privileges on 60 meters were the result of collaboration between the FCC and the NTIA – the National Telecommunications and Information Administration, the agency that manages and coordinates telecommunications activities among US government departments, the primary users of the band. The NTIA expressed concern about possible interference and requested that amateurs limit digital operating to PSK31 and PACTOR III only.

It is certainly possible to interpret the FCC Report and Order somewhat broadly as it concerns digital operating on the band, but be careful not to read too much into the text.Therefore, as a practical matter it appears that any J2D data emission is to be permitted up to a bandwidth of 2.8 kHz, provided that care is exercised to limit the length of transmissions

With an eye to the potential for expanded 60 meter privileges in the future, the ARRL believes it is critical to cooperate fully with the NTIA. Therefore, the ARRL asks all amateurs to restrict 60-meter digital operations to PSK31 or PACTOR III.

With PSK31 you must operate on the following channel center frequencies:
Channel 1: 5332.0 kHz
Channel 2: 5348.0 kHz
Channel 3: 5358.5 kHz
Channel 4: 5373.0 kHz
Channel 5: 5405.0 kHz

this paragraph from that page is most telling...
With an eye to the potential for expanded 60 meter privileges in the future, the ARRL believes it is critical to cooperate fully with the NTIA. Therefore, the ARRL asks all amateurs to restrict 60-meter digital operations to PSK31 or PACTOR III.
they all say we can only transmit on the center frequency
on that page there's finally a reference showing other modes of the emissions being okay, with one note, they all say must transmit only on the 1500 hz center frequency.http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/Recommended_Practices_Version_6_5.pdf

and from part 97

5. Section 97.303 is amended by revising paragraph (h) to read as follows.

Frequency sharing requirements.
* * * * *

(h) 60 m band: (1) In the 5330.5-5406.4 kHz band (60 m band), amateur stations may transmit only on the five center frequencies specified in the table below. In order to meet this requirement, control operators of stations transmitting phone, data, and RTTY emissions (emission designators 2K80J3E, 2K80J2D, and 60H0J2B, respectively) may set the carrier frequency 1.5 kHz below the center frequency as specified in the table below. For CW emissions (emission designator 150HA1A), the carrier frequency is set to the center frequency. Amateur operators shall ensure that their emissions do not occupy more than 2.8 kHz centered on each of these center frequencies.

Also, DX stations are not bound by FCC and NTIA rules. and I'm not referencing non us hams except to say they have their own rules from their own countries regulation bodies, but WE need to follow our own rules.



You (nah, wasn't me) or someone (wasn't me I wouldn't know) said that “complaints from the FCC have been pouring into the ARRL” about this kind of operation. I have heard of no such complaints from neither the FCC nor NTIA and I’ve asked several at the League. So I’m asking, please do not spread such false rumors. They are unfounded. again, not me... I try to stay out of those mills.

73
Ria, N2RJ

On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 12:27 AM Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...> wrote:
Also, the rules regarding the center frequencies are not clear. FT8 doesn’t have a carrier. It’s SSB suppressed carrier. It’s FSK and its signal shifts during transmission. The word “may” and not “required” is used. So the part about where 60m FT8 must operate dead center is not really backed by anything. Also, DX stations are not bound by FCC and NTIA rules. 

You or someone said that “complaints from the FCC have been pouring into the ARRL” about this kind of operation. I have heard of no such complaints from neither the FCC nor NTIA and I’ve asked several at the League. So I’m asking, please do not spread such false rumors. They are unfounded. 

73
Ria, N2RJ 

On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 12:53 AM Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:
except the R&O is not the law, CFAR is, it specifically states PACTORIII, PSK31 CW and RTTY not all iterations of these emissions codes, so, no, it's NOT clear there, but, that's my interpretation, it's questionable to me that FT8 is appropriate. if you JUST go by the emissions code, then it's legal go ahead, but another thing they're VERY specific on, which is kinda antithetical to how FT8 works, is "no more than one transmission on the channel at any time" and you can only operate on the exact frequency, not wherever you want in the passband.
take it how you want, just please don't ruin it for the rest of us?
Seannon AG0NY

On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 11:24 PM Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...> wrote:
The R&O is crystal clear.

28. Finally, we agree with commenters that limiting digital operation
to a specific technique
discourages the further development of additional techniques, which
may be more efficient than those
currently in use. Therefore, we permit an amateur station transmitting
RTTY emission 60H0J2B or data
emission 2K80J2D to use any unspecified digital code, subject to the
requirements of Section 97.309(b).

Again, "we permit an amateur station transmitting RTTY emission 60H0J2B or data
emission 2K80J2D to use any unspecified digital code, subject to the
requirements of Section 97.309(b)" - this means that ANY digital code
can be used, provided it's not obscured (encrypted),

2K80J2D is simply "Data" which covers FT8 and is an allowed emission type.

Here is a refresher on how to read the emission types:

2K80 - Bandwidth not to exceed 2.8kHz (meaning, any bandwidth up to 2.80kHz
J - Amplitude Modulation, Single Sideband, Suppressed Carrier - Check
2 - Digital with modulation - Check
D - Data, telecommand or telemetry - Check

Any reasonable person can therefore conclude that FT8 is not illegal
on 60 metres under US rules..

Hope this helps.

73
Ria, N2RJ


On Sat, 22 Feb 2020 at 00:04, Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:
>
> from the R&O here... https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2012/02/03/2012-2477https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2012/02/03/2012-2477/amateur-radio-use-of-the-allocation-at-5-mhz/amateur-radio-use-of-the-allocation-at-5-mhz
>
>
> 9. Under the existing rules, only upper sideband voice transmissions are permitted in the 60 meter band. In the NPRM, the Commission proposed to authorize the use of three additional emission designators in the band: CW emission 150HA1A, which is Morse telegraphy by means of on-off keying, and data emissions 2K80J2D and 60H0J2B. In § 97.307(f)(14)(i) of the proposed rules, the Commission restricts emission designator 2K80J2D to data using PACTOR-III technique and emission designator 60H0J2B to data using PSK31 technique. The Commission also sought comment on whether amateur stations could be permitted to transmit emission types in addition to those requested by ARRL in the 60 meter band without increasing the likelihood of interference to primary users. As discussed, the Commission adopts its proposal to allow the use of the three additional emission designators.
>
> 10. Emission Designators. Our proposal drew a wide range of responses. Although the majority of commenters fully or generally support the proposals that the Commission made in the NPRM, many commenters expressed concerns about some or all of the proposed new emission designators. Commenters were most supportive of the proposed addition of emission designators 150HA1A and 60H0J2B. By contrast, the proposal to add emission type 2K80J2D proved much more divisive. The record also includes a few commenters who are skeptical that additional emission types are appropriate for the 60 meter band.
>
> 12. Specific Techniques of the Data Emissions. Commenters strongly believe that the use of the emission designators 60H0J2B and 2K80J2D should not be restricted to the specific techniques of PSK31 and PACTOR-III, respectively. This approach differs from what was proposed in the NPRM. This is why I question the legality of FT8, it SPECIFICALLY STATES EVERYWHERE PACTORIII, not PACTORIII and other2k80J2D emissions. specifically PACTORIII and PSK31. I agree it "SHOULDN'T matter, but it quite possibly DOES matter. also, it SPECIFICALLY STATES PSK31, CW, PACTORIII and RTTY on the band charts
>
> 14. The Commission recognizes that many commenters are concerned that the addition of new emission types— data emission types in general and PACTOR-III specifically—holds the risk of reducing the utility of these channels for many amateurs, especially for those who may not readily recognize data transmissions and may avoid use of the channels out of an abundance of caution. The Commission concludes that there are ways to minimize any potential disruption that the new emission types could cause. ARRL notes that amateur “stations typically utilize relatively short transmissions in telegraphy and are able to manually detect the presence of a non-Amateur signal within the channel bandwidth while operating in that mode” and that the “same is true of 60H0J2B and 2K80J2D emissions, if careful manual operating practices are used.” Moreover, ARRL commits to the necessary dissemination of “best practices” information to the amateur community on a timely basis and to the adoption and publication of a comprehensive band plan for these channels that will maintain maximum flexibility in Amateur use without interference. Lastly, the Commission adopts certain operational rules, which will serve to ensure that the new emission types are used in a manner that promotes continued shared use of the band by all. do you listen to your radio on the digital modes? or just use the waterfall?
>
> Seannon AG0NY
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> (ii) The following requirements also apply:
>
> (A) When transmitting the phone, RTTY, and data emissions, the suppressed carrier frequency may be set as specified in § 97.303(h).
>
> (B) The control operator of a station transmitting data or RTTY emissions must exercise care to limit the length of transmission so as to avoid causing harmful interference to United States Government stations.
>
> 8. Section 97.313 is amended by revising paragraphs (f) and (i) to read as follows.
>
> § 97.313
> Transmitter power standards.
> * * * * *
>
> (f) No station may transmit with a transmitter power exceeding 50 W PEP on the UHF 70 cm band from an area specified in paragraph (a) of footnote US270 in § 2.106, unless expressly authorized by the FCC after mutual agreement, on a case-by-case basis, between the District Director of the applicable field facility and the military area frequency coordinator at the applicable military base. An Earth station or telecommand station, however, may transmit on the 435-438 MHz segment with a maximum of 611 W effective radiated power (1 kW equivalent isotropically radiated power) without the authorization otherwise required. The transmitting antenna elevation angle between the lower half-power (−3 dB relative to the peak or antenna bore sight) point and the horizon must always be greater than 10°.
>
> * * * * *
>
> (i) No station may transmit with an effective radiated power (ERP) exceeding 100 W PEP on the 60 m band. For the purpose of computing ERP, the transmitter PEP will be multiplied by the antenna gain relative to a half-wave dipole antenna. A half-wave dipole antenna will be presumed to have a gain of 1 (0 dBd). Licensees using other antennas must maintain in their station records either the antenna manufacturer's data on the antenna gain or calculations of the antenna gain.
>
> * * * * *
>
> Footnotes
>
> 1. The RFA, see 5 U.S.C. 601-612, has been amended by the Small Business Regulatory Enforcement Fairness Act of 1996 (SBREFA), Public Law 104-121, Title II, 110 Stat. 857 (1996).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 2. 5 U.S.C. 605(b).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 3. 5 U.S.C. 601(6).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 4. 5 U.S.C. 601(3) (incorporating by reference the definition of “small business concern” in the Small Business Act, 15 U.S.C. 632). Pursuant to 5 U.S.C. 601(3), the statutory definition of a small business applies “unless an agency, after consultation with the Office of Advocacy of the Small Business Administration and after opportunity for public comment, establishes one or more definitions of such term which are appropriate to the activities of the agency and publishes such definition(s) in the Federal Register.”
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 5. 15 U.S.C. 632.
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 6. See 5 U.S.C. 605(b).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 7. See 5 U.S.C. 801(a)(1)(A).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 8. See 5 U.S.C. 604(b).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> BILLING CODE 6712-01-P
>
> BILLING CODE 6712-01-C
>
> [FR Doc. 2012-2477 Filed 2-2-12; 8:45 am]
>
> BILLING CODE 6712-01-P
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 10:07 PM Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...> wrote:
>>
>> "I'm not even entirely convinced that it's legal for us to use FT8 on
>> this band AT ALL because they don't specify it, they mention CW,
>> PSK31, PACTORIII (not AMTOR or any other similar modes) and
>> begrudgingly RTTY"
>>
>> You may not be entirely convinced, but the R&O is pretty clear:
>>
>> Finally, we agree with commenters that limiting digital operation to a
>> specific technique
>> discourages the further development of additional techniques, which
>> may be more efficient than those
>> currently in use. >>>Therefore, we permit an amateur station
>> transmitting RTTY emission 60H0J2B or data
>> emission 2K80J2D to use any unspecified digital code, subject to the
>> requirements of Section 97.309(b).<<<
>>
>> Note the highlighted part. Any unspecified digital code may be used.
>> FT8 falls under that and is not illegal on 60m.
>>
>> 73
>> Ria, N2RJ
>>
>> On Fri, 21 Feb 2020 at 22:42, Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hassan, I'm going to pick out a bit of info here... you stated that being able to use full bandwidth for SSB, but only the bandwidth of a single transmission on digital, which for this band is CW, (on off, not modulated) PSK31, PACTORIII, and RTTY, RTTY seems to have been added begrudgingly, but the important things of note are 1. WE ARE SECONDARY ON THIS BAND! , not primary, so we exist here only as long as we do things the way we won't get in trouble, we may get a slice of the band at some point, but we need to prove our ability to abide by the rules. 2, the band poster is pretty clear on the rules for this band,  it really is, 3. when you consider the types of use the primary users of the band have for it, (governmental) it makes sense that it would be one station transmitting at a time, period, if you transmit over someone else's transmission, you are causing interference. if you can't hear the station, it's unintentional, if you do it and you KNOW there's someone transmitting, it's INTENTIONAL INTERFERENCE, and against FCC regs anyway...like if you're hearing a pileup and everyone's running 50 watts, and you decide to heck with them, I'm going to make this contact if it kills me and slam them with a beam and full legal limit, you're breaking the intent of the rules. going back to the use, we are secondary, if you have 35 stations clogging up the channel, it would take much more time to tell each person QRT than the one or two that it would be.
>> >
>> > think of it this way, we are "BORROWING" the car... what rules should you follow when you borrow the car? the ones the person that let you use the car has, along with all local laws... don't get it dirty, don't wreck it, don't leave dirty diapers or used condoms in it don't do something that makes the person that has the car say I don't think I want to let you borrow the car again.
>> >
>> > the rules on this band are restrictive for a reason, just as their own internal rules are on the band. I'm not even entirely convinced that it's legal for us to use FT8 on this band AT ALL because they don't specify it, they mention CW, PSK31, PACTORIII (not AMTOR or any other similar modes) and begrudgingly RTTY
>> >
>> > Seannon, AG0NY
>> >
>> > Only one signal at a time is permitted on any channel." (From ARRL Band Poster)
>> > http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/Band%20Chart/Band%20Chart%20-%2011X17%20Color.pdf
>> >
>> > More on Center of Channel ( 1500 Hz) Requirement:
>> >
>> > "With your PSK31 software display configured to indicate audio frequencies, click your mouse cursor at the 1500 Hz mark (see below). With your radio in the USB mode, this marker indicates the center of the channel and it is the frequency on which you should be transmitting."
>> >
>> > There is no special exemption for FT8, the same center channel rule applies.
>> >
>> > In Summary from the ARRL:
>> >
>> > 1. Only one station may transmit at a time.
>> > 2. They must be at he CENTER of the allocated channel (1500 Hz)
>> > 3. NTIA has defined "on channel" as precisely 1.5 kHz below the assigned channel frequency.
>> >
>> > These are highly restrictive and have NOT been enforced. I posted my initial "Be Careful" message, because I was warned by someone familiar with the upcoming ARRL take-over of the FCC certified Monitoring Program, that once the new program had officially started : ENFORCEMENT WOULD BE FORTHCOMING and the enforcement will include referrals to the FCC for action.
>> >
>> > Unfortunately, the comment below reflects the attitude of many USA amateurs:
>> >
>> >  "If the FCC is that concerned about legitimate FT8 use within that 2.8 KHz BW, they need to clarify their own rules and rationale and make this clarification known.  Because right now, its as clear as mud.  "Field Day" for lawyers, so to speak."
>> >
>> > But the rules ARE clear here, there's a power level, compared to known quantity, they specifically give both CW center frequencies and USB frequencies as "Channels" they also give specific emissions types that are allowed, also, don't transmit when you can hear a station transmitting (only one station transmitting at any time) now, as for the rationale? that's not for us really, we have the rules to follow.
>> >
>> > As a result,  the 60m requirements for digital, (FT8 included), have been summarily ignored if not outright violated. I, myself did so, because I did not understand how one could reasonably operate a full SSB bandwidth and that was ok, but could not use the entire 2.8 kHz bandwidth for multiple narrow band FT8 transmissions. It makes NO sense. But....the rule is unforgiving and I have been told they are going to enforce it.
>> > It makes much more sense when you consider the government as primary, with us as secondary, it would take much more time to contact 20-30 stations to tell them to QRT than one or two governments would not try to stuff a ton of traffic in a single channel like this, they go for reliable communications over efficiency, unlike hams
>> >
>> >
>> > Only one signal at a time is permitted on any channel." (From ARRL Band Poster)
>> > http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/Band%20Chart/Band%20Chart%20-%2011X17%20Color.pdf
>> >
>> > More on Center of Channel ( 1500 Hz) Requirement:
>> >
>> > "With your PSK31 software display configured to indicate audio frequencies, click your mouse cursor at the 1500 Hz mark (see below). With your radio in the USB mode, this marker indicates the center of the channel and it is the frequency on which you should be transmitting."
>> >
>> > There is no special exemption for FT8, the same center channel rule applies.
>> >
>> > In Summary from the ARRL:
>> >
>> > 1. Only one station may transmit at a time.
>> > 2. They must be at he CENTER of the allocated channel (1500 Hz)
>> > 3. NTIA has defined "on channel" as precisely 1.5 kHz below the assigned channel frequency.
>> >
>> > These are highly restrictive and have NOT been enforced. I posted my initial "Be Careful" message, because I was warned by someone familiar with the upcoming ARRL take-over of the FCC certified Monitoring Program, that once the new program had officially started : ENFORCEMENT WOULD BE FORTHCOMING and the enforcement will include referrals to the FCC for action.
>> >
>> > Unfortunately, the comment below reflects the attitude of many USA amateurs:
>> >
>> >  "If the FCC is that concerned about legitimate FT8 use within that 2.8 KHz BW, they need to clarify their own rules and rationale and make this clarification known.  Because right now, its as clear as mud.  "Field Day" for lawyers, so to speak."
>> > The rules are pretty well spelled out, look at the chart above, there's channel info and conversions, , center channels, power requirements in relation to a specific antenna, and emissions modes (PSK31, PACTORIII not AMTOR or similar modes and RTTY, so it's questionable as to the legality of FT8 here anyway.
>> > As a result,  the 60m requirements for digital, (FT8 included), have been summarily ignored if not outright violated. I, myself did so, because I did not understand how one could reasonably operate a full SSB bandwidth and that was ok, but could not use the entire 2.8 kHz bandwidth for multiple narrow band FT8 transmissions. It makes NO sense. But....the rule is unforgiving and I have been told they are going to enforce it.
>> > It makes a lot more sense when you consider the PRIMARY on the band, and not us as amateurs that are secondary. governments would use this as close to a clear channel for simplicity's sake especially true in emergency communications, or wartime, so, if you hear someone transmitting, wait, don't transmit on top of them, it could be life or death. We as hams like to make the case for efficiency, the government for reliable communications
>> >
>> > I have advocated one thing and one thing only: Be Careful. I don't have horse this race. It would be a shame, however, if we lost this allocation or someone would get a QSL card from the FCC because they refused to exercise some caution in the matter.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I have advocated one thing and one thing only: Be Careful. I don't have horse this race. It would be a shame, however, if we lost this allocation or someone would get a QSL card from the FCC because they refused to exercise some caution in the matter.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 7:55 AM Hasan Schiers N0AN <hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> From the ARRL:
>> >> These are channel-center frequencies, not the ones you tune your radio to. The NTIA told the FCC that hams "must assure that their signal is transmitted on the channel-center frequency." This means the amateur signal must be centered within the 2.8-kHz-wide channel. The FCC has provided scant guidance beyond suggesting--in a footnote that follows the NTIA's advice--that amateurs tune 1.5 kHz below the center-channel frequencies to be "on channel." Amateurs need to be sure that the tuning display readout reflects transmitted (ie, carrier) frequency (most do). Consult your transceiver's manual if you're not sure.
>> >>
>> >> From the ARRL:
>> >> In addition, the FCC continues to require that all digital transmissions be centered on the channel-center frequencies, which the Report and Order defines as being 1.5 kHz above the suppressed carrier frequency of a transceiver operated in the Upper Sideband (USB) mode. This is typically the frequency shown on the frequency display.
>> >>
>> >> (Note that this does not say 1580, 1320, 700, ...it says 1.5 kHz) my comment, not ARRL's)
>> >>
>> >> http://www.arrl.org/60m-channel-allocation
>> >> "Operating at strict channel-center frequencies may come as a disappointment to many, but cooperating with the NTIA is key to expanded privileges in the future.
>> >> The channel center frequencies are":..snipped...60 meters
>> >>
>> >> "Only one signal at a time is permitted on any channel." (From ARRL Band Poster)
>> >> http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/Band%20Chart/Band%20Chart%20-%2011X17%20Color.pdf
>> >>
>> >> More on Center of Channel ( 1500 Hz) Requirement:
>> >>
>> >> "With your PSK31 software display configured to indicate audio frequencies, click your mouse cursor at the 1500 Hz mark (see below). With your radio in the USB mode, this marker indicates the center of the channel and it is the frequency on which you should be transmitting."
>> >>
>> >> There is no special exemption for FT8, the same center channel rule applies.
>> >>
>> >> In Summary from the ARRL:
>> >>
>> >> 1. Only one station may transmit at a time.
>> >> 2. They must be at he CENTER of the allocated channel (1500 Hz)
>> >> 3. NTIA has defined "on channel" as precisely 1.5 kHz below the assigned channel frequency.
>> >>
>> >> These are highly restrictive and have NOT been enforced. I posted my initial "Be Careful" message, because I was warned by someone familiar with the upcoming ARRL take-over of the FCC certified Monitoring Program, that once the new program had officially started : ENFORCEMENT WOULD BE FORTHCOMING and the enforcement will include referrals to the FCC for action.
>> >>
>> >> Unfortunately, the comment below reflects the attitude of many USA amateurs:
>> >>
>> >>  "If the FCC is that concerned about legitimate FT8 use within that 2.8 KHz BW, they need to clarify their own rules and rationale and make this clarification known.  Because right now, its as clear as mud.  "Field Day" for lawyers, so to speak."
>> >>
>> >> As a result,  the 60m requirements for digital, (FT8 included), have been summarily ignored if not outright violated. I, myself did so, because I did not understand how one could reasonably operate a full SSB bandwidth and that was ok, but could not use the entire 2.8 kHz bandwidth for multiple narrow band FT8 transmissions. It makes NO sense. But....the rule is unforgiving and I have been told they are going to enforce it.
>> >>
>> >> I have advocated one thing and one thing only: Be Careful. I don't have horse this race. It would be a shame, however, if we lost this allocation or someone would get a QSL card from the FCC because they refused to exercise some caution in the matter.
>> >>
>> >> 73, N0AN
>> >> Hasan
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 5:41 AM Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Also, it clearly states that no more than one station transmit at any given time thus also limiting to a conversational rather than a transactional contact type. (If you hear a conversation, don't transmit, if you hear a CQ, answer it unless you hear someone else answering)
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Seannon, ag0ny
>> >>>
>> >>> On Thu, Feb 20, 2020, 05:15 Nc8q-mesh@... <nc8q-mesh@...> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On 2/20/20 5:17 AM, Hasan Schiers N0AN wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Again, ARRL have *on multiple occasions* reported communications from
>> >>>> FCC Enforcement staff (and NTIA who are responsible for the "60 M
>> >>>> band") reminding US licensed amateurs that 97.303(h) requires using
>> >>>> *identical* audio frequency and carrier offsets so that the transmitted
>> >>>> signal is centered exactly on the middle of the assigned "Channel" -
>> >>>> not generating a random offset within a 2.7 KHz "band".
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> IMHO, this discussion of operating FT8 on 60 meters deserves its own thread.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>  From looking at the waterfall display (Wide Graph),
>> >>>> it seems to me that a FT8 Tx frequency of 1500 indicates signals from
>> >>>> 'dial frequency + 1500 Hz' to 'dial frequency + ~1548 Hz'.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The get TX signals centered on 1500 Hz,
>> >>>>  would it not require setting WSJTX to 1476 Hz ?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Chuck
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > “It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”
>> >
>> > Nikola Tesla
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
> --
> “It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”
>
> Nikola Tesla
>
>
>



--
“It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”

Nikola Tesla






--
“It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”

Nikola Tesla



locked Re: Configuration cloning/copying version 2.1.2 vs 2.1.0

Esa Nieminen
 

Thank you for the answer Kari. It seemed to cure the problem. I could not find the cure because it is KDE problem.
73 de OH2AWG, Esa N


locked Re: 60 meters: Operating guidelines for FT8

Seannon Baker (AG0NY)
 

sorry, nah...
AG0NY


On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 1:30 AM Gary Gorniak <w9bs@...> wrote:

Please just shut up already, Seannon.

 

Gary – W9BS

 

From: WSJTX@groups.io [mailto:WSJTX@groups.io] On Behalf Of Seannon Baker (AG0NY)
Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2020 1:27 AM
To: WSJTX@groups.io
Subject: Re: [WSJTX] 60 meters: Operating guidelines for FT8

 

I see you're a director with the ARRL, GREAT, giving a "refresher" to someone on how to read an emission type is, and always will be a bit snarky, I question FT8's appropriateness much more than lack of legality here, more because of the way FT8 is used. bunch of stations transmitting on slightly differing frequencies within a passband... it's efficient but not to the letter of the law (part 97) here in the states, we have 5 frequencies in the 60 meter band, all of the kerfuffle here is coming from ONE bright star mode that people are using (great!) worldwide OUT OF THE RULES SET BY THE FCC to the detriment OF THE PRIMARY USER OF THE BAND. it doesn't matter what they do in 9y, Germany, Russia, Antarctica...we MUST follow our rules or we may wind up not with extending further privileges, but by removal of them our spectra is valuable, there are attacks on why we need it given to us constantly. look at 11 meters... that used to be a ham band... possibly again but not if we can't take care of ourselves.

our service is the only one where certification for commercial entities follows an amateur lead, 2/3 of the GROL+ RADAR and a few less of the GMDSS OPERATOR/MAINTAINER tests came from amateur pools, we lead by example, not by force

 

Seannon, AG0NY, GROL+RADAR formerly GMDSS OPERATOR/MAINTAINER along with FAA Airframe and powerplant certification "A&P"

 

On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 11:24 PM Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...> wrote:

The R&O is crystal clear.

28. Finally, we agree with commenters that limiting digital operation
to a specific technique
discourages the further development of additional techniques, which
may be more efficient than those
currently in use. Therefore, we permit an amateur station transmitting
RTTY emission 60H0J2B or data
emission 2K80J2D to use any unspecified digital code, subject to the
requirements of Section 97.309(b).

Again, "we permit an amateur station transmitting RTTY emission 60H0J2B or data
emission 2K80J2D to use any unspecified digital code, subject to the
requirements of Section 97.309(b)" - this means that ANY digital code
can be used, provided it's not obscured (encrypted),

2K80J2D is simply "Data" which covers FT8 and is an allowed emission type.

Here is a refresher on how to read the emission types:

2K80 - Bandwidth not to exceed 2.8kHz (meaning, any bandwidth up to 2.80kHz
J - Amplitude Modulation, Single Sideband, Suppressed Carrier - Check
2 - Digital with modulation - Check
D - Data, telecommand or telemetry - Check

Any reasonable person can therefore conclude that FT8 is not illegal
on 60 metres under US rules..

Hope this helps.

73
Ria, N2RJ


On Sat, 22 Feb 2020 at 00:04, Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:
>
> from the R&O here... https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2012/02/03/2012-2477https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2012/02/03/2012-2477/amateur-radio-use-of-the-allocation-at-5-mhz/amateur-radio-use-of-the-allocation-at-5-mhz
>
>
> 9. Under the existing rules, only upper sideband voice transmissions are permitted in the 60 meter band. In the NPRM, the Commission proposed to authorize the use of three additional emission designators in the band: CW emission 150HA1A, which is Morse telegraphy by means of on-off keying, and data emissions 2K80J2D and 60H0J2B. In § 97.307(f)(14)(i) of the proposed rules, the Commission restricts emission designator 2K80J2D to data using PACTOR-III technique and emission designator 60H0J2B to data using PSK31 technique. The Commission also sought comment on whether amateur stations could be permitted to transmit emission types in addition to those requested by ARRL in the 60 meter band without increasing the likelihood of interference to primary users. As discussed, the Commission adopts its proposal to allow the use of the three additional emission designators.
>
> 10. Emission Designators. Our proposal drew a wide range of responses. Although the majority of commenters fully or generally support the proposals that the Commission made in the NPRM, many commenters expressed concerns about some or all of the proposed new emission designators. Commenters were most supportive of the proposed addition of emission designators 150HA1A and 60H0J2B. By contrast, the proposal to add emission type 2K80J2D proved much more divisive. The record also includes a few commenters who are skeptical that additional emission types are appropriate for the 60 meter band.
>
> 12. Specific Techniques of the Data Emissions. Commenters strongly believe that the use of the emission designators 60H0J2B and 2K80J2D should not be restricted to the specific techniques of PSK31 and PACTOR-III, respectively. This approach differs from what was proposed in the NPRM. This is why I question the legality of FT8, it SPECIFICALLY STATES EVERYWHERE PACTORIII, not PACTORIII and other2k80J2D emissions. specifically PACTORIII and PSK31. I agree it "SHOULDN'T matter, but it quite possibly DOES matter. also, it SPECIFICALLY STATES PSK31, CW, PACTORIII and RTTY on the band charts
>
> 14. The Commission recognizes that many commenters are concerned that the addition of new emission types— data emission types in general and PACTOR-III specifically—holds the risk of reducing the utility of these channels for many amateurs, especially for those who may not readily recognize data transmissions and may avoid use of the channels out of an abundance of caution. The Commission concludes that there are ways to minimize any potential disruption that the new emission types could cause. ARRL notes that amateur “stations typically utilize relatively short transmissions in telegraphy and are able to manually detect the presence of a non-Amateur signal within the channel bandwidth while operating in that mode” and that the “same is true of 60H0J2B and 2K80J2D emissions, if careful manual operating practices are used.” Moreover, ARRL commits to the necessary dissemination of “best practices” information to the amateur community on a timely basis and to the adoption and publication of a comprehensive band plan for these channels that will maintain maximum flexibility in Amateur use without interference. Lastly, the Commission adopts certain operational rules, which will serve to ensure that the new emission types are used in a manner that promotes continued shared use of the band by all. do you listen to your radio on the digital modes? or just use the waterfall?
>
> Seannon AG0NY
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> (ii) The following requirements also apply:
>
> (A) When transmitting the phone, RTTY, and data emissions, the suppressed carrier frequency may be set as specified in § 97.303(h).
>
> (B) The control operator of a station transmitting data or RTTY emissions must exercise care to limit the length of transmission so as to avoid causing harmful interference to United States Government stations.
>
> 8. Section 97.313 is amended by revising paragraphs (f) and (i) to read as follows.
>
> § 97.313
> Transmitter power standards.
> * * * * *
>
> (f) No station may transmit with a transmitter power exceeding 50 W PEP on the UHF 70 cm band from an area specified in paragraph (a) of footnote US270 in § 2.106, unless expressly authorized by the FCC after mutual agreement, on a case-by-case basis, between the District Director of the applicable field facility and the military area frequency coordinator at the applicable military base. An Earth station or telecommand station, however, may transmit on the 435-438 MHz segment with a maximum of 611 W effective radiated power (1 kW equivalent isotropically radiated power) without the authorization otherwise required. The transmitting antenna elevation angle between the lower half-power (−3 dB relative to the peak or antenna bore sight) point and the horizon must always be greater than 10°.
>
> * * * * *
>
> (i) No station may transmit with an effective radiated power (ERP) exceeding 100 W PEP on the 60 m band. For the purpose of computing ERP, the transmitter PEP will be multiplied by the antenna gain relative to a half-wave dipole antenna. A half-wave dipole antenna will be presumed to have a gain of 1 (0 dBd). Licensees using other antennas must maintain in their station records either the antenna manufacturer's data on the antenna gain or calculations of the antenna gain.
>
> * * * * *
>
> Footnotes
>
> 1. The RFA, see 5 U.S.C. 601-612, has been amended by the Small Business Regulatory Enforcement Fairness Act of 1996 (SBREFA), Public Law 104-121, Title II, 110 Stat. 857 (1996).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 2. 5 U.S.C. 605(b).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 3. 5 U.S.C. 601(6).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 4. 5 U.S.C. 601(3) (incorporating by reference the definition of “small business concern” in the Small Business Act, 15 U.S.C. 632). Pursuant to 5 U.S.C. 601(3), the statutory definition of a small business applies “unless an agency, after consultation with the Office of Advocacy of the Small Business Administration and after opportunity for public comment, establishes one or more definitions of such term which are appropriate to the activities of the agency and publishes such definition(s) in the Federal Register.”
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 5. 15 U.S.C. 632.
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 6. See 5 U.S.C. 605(b).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 7. See 5 U.S.C. 801(a)(1)(A).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 8. See 5 U.S.C. 604(b).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> BILLING CODE 6712-01-P
>
> BILLING CODE 6712-01-C
>
> [FR Doc. 2012-2477 Filed 2-2-12; 8:45 am]
>
> BILLING CODE 6712-01-P
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 10:07 PM Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...> wrote:
>>
>> "I'm not even entirely convinced that it's legal for us to use FT8 on
>> this band AT ALL because they don't specify it, they mention CW,
>> PSK31, PACTORIII (not AMTOR or any other similar modes) and
>> begrudgingly RTTY"
>>
>> You may not be entirely convinced, but the R&O is pretty clear:
>>
>> Finally, we agree with commenters that limiting digital operation to a
>> specific technique
>> discourages the further development of additional techniques, which
>> may be more efficient than those
>> currently in use. >>>Therefore, we permit an amateur station
>> transmitting RTTY emission 60H0J2B or data
>> emission 2K80J2D to use any unspecified digital code, subject to the
>> requirements of Section 97.309(b).<<<
>>
>> Note the highlighted part. Any unspecified digital code may be used.
>> FT8 falls under that and is not illegal on 60m.
>>
>> 73
>> Ria, N2RJ
>>
>> On Fri, 21 Feb 2020 at 22:42, Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hassan, I'm going to pick out a bit of info here... you stated that being able to use full bandwidth for SSB, but only the bandwidth of a single transmission on digital, which for this band is CW, (on off, not modulated) PSK31, PACTORIII, and RTTY, RTTY seems to have been added begrudgingly, but the important things of note are 1. WE ARE SECONDARY ON THIS BAND! , not primary, so we exist here only as long as we do things the way we won't get in trouble, we may get a slice of the band at some point, but we need to prove our ability to abide by the rules. 2, the band poster is pretty clear on the rules for this band,  it really is, 3. when you consider the types of use the primary users of the band have for it, (governmental) it makes sense that it would be one station transmitting at a time, period, if you transmit over someone else's transmission, you are causing interference. if you can't hear the station, it's unintentional, if you do it and you KNOW there's someone transmitting, it's INTENTIONAL INTERFERENCE, and against FCC regs anyway...like if you're hearing a pileup and everyone's running 50 watts, and you decide to heck with them, I'm going to make this contact if it kills me and slam them with a beam and full legal limit, you're breaking the intent of the rules. going back to the use, we are secondary, if you have 35 stations clogging up the channel, it would take much more time to tell each person QRT than the one or two that it would be.
>> >
>> > think of it this way, we are "BORROWING" the car... what rules should you follow when you borrow the car? the ones the person that let you use the car has, along with all local laws... don't get it dirty, don't wreck it, don't leave dirty diapers or used condoms in it don't do something that makes the person that has the car say I don't think I want to let you borrow the car again.
>> >
>> > the rules on this band are restrictive for a reason, just as their own internal rules are on the band. I'm not even entirely convinced that it's legal for us to use FT8 on this band AT ALL because they don't specify it, they mention CW, PSK31, PACTORIII (not AMTOR or any other similar modes) and begrudgingly RTTY
>> >
>> > Seannon, AG0NY
>> >
>> > Only one signal at a time is permitted on any channel." (From ARRL Band Poster)
>> > http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/Band%20Chart/Band%20Chart%20-%2011X17%20Color.pdf
>> >
>> > More on Center of Channel ( 1500 Hz) Requirement:
>> >
>> > "With your PSK31 software display configured to indicate audio frequencies, click your mouse cursor at the 1500 Hz mark (see below). With your radio in the USB mode, this marker indicates the center of the channel and it is the frequency on which you should be transmitting."
>> >
>> > There is no special exemption for FT8, the same center channel rule applies.
>> >
>> > In Summary from the ARRL:
>> >
>> > 1. Only one station may transmit at a time.
>> > 2. They must be at he CENTER of the allocated channel (1500 Hz)
>> > 3. NTIA has defined "on channel" as precisely 1.5 kHz below the assigned channel frequency.
>> >
>> > These are highly restrictive and have NOT been enforced. I posted my initial "Be Careful" message, because I was warned by someone familiar with the upcoming ARRL take-over of the FCC certified Monitoring Program, that once the new program had officially started : ENFORCEMENT WOULD BE FORTHCOMING and the enforcement will include referrals to the FCC for action.
>> >
>> > Unfortunately, the comment below reflects the attitude of many USA amateurs:
>> >
>> >  "If the FCC is that concerned about legitimate FT8 use within that 2.8 KHz BW, they need to clarify their own rules and rationale and make this clarification known.  Because right now, its as clear as mud.  "Field Day" for lawyers, so to speak."
>> >
>> > But the rules ARE clear here, there's a power level, compared to known quantity, they specifically give both CW center frequencies and USB frequencies as "Channels" they also give specific emissions types that are allowed, also, don't transmit when you can hear a station transmitting (only one station transmitting at any time) now, as for the rationale? that's not for us really, we have the rules to follow.
>> >
>> > As a result,  the 60m requirements for digital, (FT8 included), have been summarily ignored if not outright violated. I, myself did so, because I did not understand how one could reasonably operate a full SSB bandwidth and that was ok, but could not use the entire 2.8 kHz bandwidth for multiple narrow band FT8 transmissions. It makes NO sense. But....the rule is unforgiving and I have been told they are going to enforce it.
>> > It makes much more sense when you consider the government as primary, with us as secondary, it would take much more time to contact 20-30 stations to tell them to QRT than one or two governments would not try to stuff a ton of traffic in a single channel like this, they go for reliable communications over efficiency, unlike hams
>> >
>> >
>> > Only one signal at a time is permitted on any channel." (From ARRL Band Poster)
>> > http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/Band%20Chart/Band%20Chart%20-%2011X17%20Color.pdf
>> >
>> > More on Center of Channel ( 1500 Hz) Requirement:
>> >
>> > "With your PSK31 software display configured to indicate audio frequencies, click your mouse cursor at the 1500 Hz mark (see below). With your radio in the USB mode, this marker indicates the center of the channel and it is the frequency on which you should be transmitting."
>> >
>> > There is no special exemption for FT8, the same center channel rule applies.
>> >
>> > In Summary from the ARRL:
>> >
>> > 1. Only one station may transmit at a time.
>> > 2. They must be at he CENTER of the allocated channel (1500 Hz)
>> > 3. NTIA has defined "on channel" as precisely 1.5 kHz below the assigned channel frequency.
>> >
>> > These are highly restrictive and have NOT been enforced. I posted my initial "Be Careful" message, because I was warned by someone familiar with the upcoming ARRL take-over of the FCC certified Monitoring Program, that once the new program had officially started : ENFORCEMENT WOULD BE FORTHCOMING and the enforcement will include referrals to the FCC for action.
>> >
>> > Unfortunately, the comment below reflects the attitude of many USA amateurs:
>> >
>> >  "If the FCC is that concerned about legitimate FT8 use within that 2.8 KHz BW, they need to clarify their own rules and rationale and make this clarification known.  Because right now, its as clear as mud.  "Field Day" for lawyers, so to speak."
>> > The rules are pretty well spelled out, look at the chart above, there's channel info and conversions, , center channels, power requirements in relation to a specific antenna, and emissions modes (PSK31, PACTORIII not AMTOR or similar modes and RTTY, so it's questionable as to the legality of FT8 here anyway.
>> > As a result,  the 60m requirements for digital, (FT8 included), have been summarily ignored if not outright violated. I, myself did so, because I did not understand how one could reasonably operate a full SSB bandwidth and that was ok, but could not use the entire 2.8 kHz bandwidth for multiple narrow band FT8 transmissions. It makes NO sense. But....the rule is unforgiving and I have been told they are going to enforce it.
>> > It makes a lot more sense when you consider the PRIMARY on the band, and not us as amateurs that are secondary. governments would use this as close to a clear channel for simplicity's sake especially true in emergency communications, or wartime, so, if you hear someone transmitting, wait, don't transmit on top of them, it could be life or death. We as hams like to make the case for efficiency, the government for reliable communications
>> >
>> > I have advocated one thing and one thing only: Be Careful. I don't have horse this race. It would be a shame, however, if we lost this allocation or someone would get a QSL card from the FCC because they refused to exercise some caution in the matter.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I have advocated one thing and one thing only: Be Careful. I don't have horse this race. It would be a shame, however, if we lost this allocation or someone would get a QSL card from the FCC because they refused to exercise some caution in the matter.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 7:55 AM Hasan Schiers N0AN <hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> From the ARRL:
>> >> These are channel-center frequencies, not the ones you tune your radio to. The NTIA told the FCC that hams "must assure that their signal is transmitted on the channel-center frequency." This means the amateur signal must be centered within the 2.8-kHz-wide channel. The FCC has provided scant guidance beyond suggesting--in a footnote that follows the NTIA's advice--that amateurs tune 1.5 kHz below the center-channel frequencies to be "on channel." Amateurs need to be sure that the tuning display readout reflects transmitted (ie, carrier) frequency (most do). Consult your transceiver's manual if you're not sure.
>> >>
>> >> From the ARRL:
>> >> In addition, the FCC continues to require that all digital transmissions be centered on the channel-center frequencies, which the Report and Order defines as being 1.5 kHz above the suppressed carrier frequency of a transceiver operated in the Upper Sideband (USB) mode. This is typically the frequency shown on the frequency display.
>> >>
>> >> (Note that this does not say 1580, 1320, 700, ...it says 1.5 kHz) my comment, not ARRL's)
>> >>
>> >> http://www.arrl.org/60m-channel-allocation
>> >> "Operating at strict channel-center frequencies may come as a disappointment to many, but cooperating with the NTIA is key to expanded privileges in the future.
>> >> The channel center frequencies are":..snipped...60 meters
>> >>
>> >> "Only one signal at a time is permitted on any channel." (From ARRL Band Poster)
>> >> http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/Band%20Chart/Band%20Chart%20-%2011X17%20Color.pdf
>> >>
>> >> More on Center of Channel ( 1500 Hz) Requirement:
>> >>
>> >> "With your PSK31 software display configured to indicate audio frequencies, click your mouse cursor at the 1500 Hz mark (see below). With your radio in the USB mode, this marker indicates the center of the channel and it is the frequency on which you should be transmitting."
>> >>
>> >> There is no special exemption for FT8, the same center channel rule applies.
>> >>
>> >> In Summary from the ARRL:
>> >>
>> >> 1. Only one station may transmit at a time.
>> >> 2. They must be at he CENTER of the allocated channel (1500 Hz)
>> >> 3. NTIA has defined "on channel" as precisely 1.5 kHz below the assigned channel frequency.
>> >>
>> >> These are highly restrictive and have NOT been enforced. I posted my initial "Be Careful" message, because I was warned by someone familiar with the upcoming ARRL take-over of the FCC certified Monitoring Program, that once the new program had officially started : ENFORCEMENT WOULD BE FORTHCOMING and the enforcement will include referrals to the FCC for action.
>> >>
>> >> Unfortunately, the comment below reflects the attitude of many USA amateurs:
>> >>
>> >>  "If the FCC is that concerned about legitimate FT8 use within that 2.8 KHz BW, they need to clarify their own rules and rationale and make this clarification known.  Because right now, its as clear as mud.  "Field Day" for lawyers, so to speak."
>> >>
>> >> As a result,  the 60m requirements for digital, (FT8 included), have been summarily ignored if not outright violated. I, myself did so, because I did not understand how one could reasonably operate a full SSB bandwidth and that was ok, but could not use the entire 2.8 kHz bandwidth for multiple narrow band FT8 transmissions. It makes NO sense. But....the rule is unforgiving and I have been told they are going to enforce it.
>> >>
>> >> I have advocated one thing and one thing only: Be Careful. I don't have horse this race. It would be a shame, however, if we lost this allocation or someone would get a QSL card from the FCC because they refused to exercise some caution in the matter.
>> >>
>> >> 73, N0AN
>> >> Hasan
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 5:41 AM Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Also, it clearly states that no more than one station transmit at any given time thus also limiting to a conversational rather than a transactional contact type. (If you hear a conversation, don't transmit, if you hear a CQ, answer it unless you hear someone else answering)
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Seannon, ag0ny
>> >>>
>> >>> On Thu, Feb 20, 2020, 05:15 Nc8q-mesh@... <nc8q-mesh@...> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On 2/20/20 5:17 AM, Hasan Schiers N0AN wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Again, ARRL have *on multiple occasions* reported communications from
>> >>>> FCC Enforcement staff (and NTIA who are responsible for the "60 M
>> >>>> band") reminding US licensed amateurs that 97.303(h) requires using
>> >>>> *identical* audio frequency and carrier offsets so that the transmitted
>> >>>> signal is centered exactly on the middle of the assigned "Channel" -
>> >>>> not generating a random offset within a 2.7 KHz "band".
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> IMHO, this discussion of operating FT8 on 60 meters deserves its own thread.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>  From looking at the waterfall display (Wide Graph),
>> >>>> it seems to me that a FT8 Tx frequency of 1500 indicates signals from
>> >>>> 'dial frequency + 1500 Hz' to 'dial frequency + ~1548 Hz'.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The get TX signals centered on 1500 Hz,
>> >>>>  would it not require setting WSJTX to 1476 Hz ?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Chuck
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > “It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”
>> >
>> > Nikola Tesla
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
> --
> “It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”
>
> Nikola Tesla
>
>
>



--

“It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”

Nikola Tesla

 




--
“It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”

Nikola Tesla



locked Re: 60 meters: Operating guidelines for FT8

Gary Gorniak
 

Please just shut up already, Seannon.

 

Gary – W9BS

 

From: WSJTX@groups.io [mailto:WSJTX@groups.io] On Behalf Of Seannon Baker (AG0NY)
Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2020 1:27 AM
To: WSJTX@groups.io
Subject: Re: [WSJTX] 60 meters: Operating guidelines for FT8

 

I see you're a director with the ARRL, GREAT, giving a "refresher" to someone on how to read an emission type is, and always will be a bit snarky, I question FT8's appropriateness much more than lack of legality here, more because of the way FT8 is used. bunch of stations transmitting on slightly differing frequencies within a passband... it's efficient but not to the letter of the law (part 97) here in the states, we have 5 frequencies in the 60 meter band, all of the kerfuffle here is coming from ONE bright star mode that people are using (great!) worldwide OUT OF THE RULES SET BY THE FCC to the detriment OF THE PRIMARY USER OF THE BAND. it doesn't matter what they do in 9y, Germany, Russia, Antarctica...we MUST follow our rules or we may wind up not with extending further privileges, but by removal of them our spectra is valuable, there are attacks on why we need it given to us constantly. look at 11 meters... that used to be a ham band... possibly again but not if we can't take care of ourselves.

our service is the only one where certification for commercial entities follows an amateur lead, 2/3 of the GROL+ RADAR and a few less of the GMDSS OPERATOR/MAINTAINER tests came from amateur pools, we lead by example, not by force

 

Seannon, AG0NY, GROL+RADAR formerly GMDSS OPERATOR/MAINTAINER along with FAA Airframe and powerplant certification "A&P"

 

On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 11:24 PM Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...> wrote:

The R&O is crystal clear.

28. Finally, we agree with commenters that limiting digital operation
to a specific technique
discourages the further development of additional techniques, which
may be more efficient than those
currently in use. Therefore, we permit an amateur station transmitting
RTTY emission 60H0J2B or data
emission 2K80J2D to use any unspecified digital code, subject to the
requirements of Section 97.309(b).

Again, "we permit an amateur station transmitting RTTY emission 60H0J2B or data
emission 2K80J2D to use any unspecified digital code, subject to the
requirements of Section 97.309(b)" - this means that ANY digital code
can be used, provided it's not obscured (encrypted),

2K80J2D is simply "Data" which covers FT8 and is an allowed emission type.

Here is a refresher on how to read the emission types:

2K80 - Bandwidth not to exceed 2.8kHz (meaning, any bandwidth up to 2.80kHz
J - Amplitude Modulation, Single Sideband, Suppressed Carrier - Check
2 - Digital with modulation - Check
D - Data, telecommand or telemetry - Check

Any reasonable person can therefore conclude that FT8 is not illegal
on 60 metres under US rules..

Hope this helps.

73
Ria, N2RJ


On Sat, 22 Feb 2020 at 00:04, Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:
>
> from the R&O here... https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2012/02/03/2012-2477https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2012/02/03/2012-2477/amateur-radio-use-of-the-allocation-at-5-mhz/amateur-radio-use-of-the-allocation-at-5-mhz
>
>
> 9. Under the existing rules, only upper sideband voice transmissions are permitted in the 60 meter band. In the NPRM, the Commission proposed to authorize the use of three additional emission designators in the band: CW emission 150HA1A, which is Morse telegraphy by means of on-off keying, and data emissions 2K80J2D and 60H0J2B. In § 97.307(f)(14)(i) of the proposed rules, the Commission restricts emission designator 2K80J2D to data using PACTOR-III technique and emission designator 60H0J2B to data using PSK31 technique. The Commission also sought comment on whether amateur stations could be permitted to transmit emission types in addition to those requested by ARRL in the 60 meter band without increasing the likelihood of interference to primary users. As discussed, the Commission adopts its proposal to allow the use of the three additional emission designators.
>
> 10. Emission Designators. Our proposal drew a wide range of responses. Although the majority of commenters fully or generally support the proposals that the Commission made in the NPRM, many commenters expressed concerns about some or all of the proposed new emission designators. Commenters were most supportive of the proposed addition of emission designators 150HA1A and 60H0J2B. By contrast, the proposal to add emission type 2K80J2D proved much more divisive. The record also includes a few commenters who are skeptical that additional emission types are appropriate for the 60 meter band.
>
> 12. Specific Techniques of the Data Emissions. Commenters strongly believe that the use of the emission designators 60H0J2B and 2K80J2D should not be restricted to the specific techniques of PSK31 and PACTOR-III, respectively. This approach differs from what was proposed in the NPRM. This is why I question the legality of FT8, it SPECIFICALLY STATES EVERYWHERE PACTORIII, not PACTORIII and other2k80J2D emissions. specifically PACTORIII and PSK31. I agree it "SHOULDN'T matter, but it quite possibly DOES matter. also, it SPECIFICALLY STATES PSK31, CW, PACTORIII and RTTY on the band charts
>
> 14. The Commission recognizes that many commenters are concerned that the addition of new emission types— data emission types in general and PACTOR-III specifically—holds the risk of reducing the utility of these channels for many amateurs, especially for those who may not readily recognize data transmissions and may avoid use of the channels out of an abundance of caution. The Commission concludes that there are ways to minimize any potential disruption that the new emission types could cause. ARRL notes that amateur “stations typically utilize relatively short transmissions in telegraphy and are able to manually detect the presence of a non-Amateur signal within the channel bandwidth while operating in that mode” and that the “same is true of 60H0J2B and 2K80J2D emissions, if careful manual operating practices are used.” Moreover, ARRL commits to the necessary dissemination of “best practices” information to the amateur community on a timely basis and to the adoption and publication of a comprehensive band plan for these channels that will maintain maximum flexibility in Amateur use without interference. Lastly, the Commission adopts certain operational rules, which will serve to ensure that the new emission types are used in a manner that promotes continued shared use of the band by all. do you listen to your radio on the digital modes? or just use the waterfall?
>
> Seannon AG0NY
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> (ii) The following requirements also apply:
>
> (A) When transmitting the phone, RTTY, and data emissions, the suppressed carrier frequency may be set as specified in § 97.303(h).
>
> (B) The control operator of a station transmitting data or RTTY emissions must exercise care to limit the length of transmission so as to avoid causing harmful interference to United States Government stations.
>
> 8. Section 97.313 is amended by revising paragraphs (f) and (i) to read as follows.
>
> § 97.313
> Transmitter power standards.
> * * * * *
>
> (f) No station may transmit with a transmitter power exceeding 50 W PEP on the UHF 70 cm band from an area specified in paragraph (a) of footnote US270 in § 2.106, unless expressly authorized by the FCC after mutual agreement, on a case-by-case basis, between the District Director of the applicable field facility and the military area frequency coordinator at the applicable military base. An Earth station or telecommand station, however, may transmit on the 435-438 MHz segment with a maximum of 611 W effective radiated power (1 kW equivalent isotropically radiated power) without the authorization otherwise required. The transmitting antenna elevation angle between the lower half-power (−3 dB relative to the peak or antenna bore sight) point and the horizon must always be greater than 10°.
>
> * * * * *
>
> (i) No station may transmit with an effective radiated power (ERP) exceeding 100 W PEP on the 60 m band. For the purpose of computing ERP, the transmitter PEP will be multiplied by the antenna gain relative to a half-wave dipole antenna. A half-wave dipole antenna will be presumed to have a gain of 1 (0 dBd). Licensees using other antennas must maintain in their station records either the antenna manufacturer's data on the antenna gain or calculations of the antenna gain.
>
> * * * * *
>
> Footnotes
>
> 1. The RFA, see 5 U.S.C. 601-612, has been amended by the Small Business Regulatory Enforcement Fairness Act of 1996 (SBREFA), Public Law 104-121, Title II, 110 Stat. 857 (1996).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 2. 5 U.S.C. 605(b).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 3. 5 U.S.C. 601(6).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 4. 5 U.S.C. 601(3) (incorporating by reference the definition of “small business concern” in the Small Business Act, 15 U.S.C. 632). Pursuant to 5 U.S.C. 601(3), the statutory definition of a small business applies “unless an agency, after consultation with the Office of Advocacy of the Small Business Administration and after opportunity for public comment, establishes one or more definitions of such term which are appropriate to the activities of the agency and publishes such definition(s) in the Federal Register.”
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 5. 15 U.S.C. 632.
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 6. See 5 U.S.C. 605(b).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 7. See 5 U.S.C. 801(a)(1)(A).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 8. See 5 U.S.C. 604(b).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> BILLING CODE 6712-01-P
>
> BILLING CODE 6712-01-C
>
> [FR Doc. 2012-2477 Filed 2-2-12; 8:45 am]
>
> BILLING CODE 6712-01-P
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 10:07 PM Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...> wrote:
>>
>> "I'm not even entirely convinced that it's legal for us to use FT8 on
>> this band AT ALL because they don't specify it, they mention CW,
>> PSK31, PACTORIII (not AMTOR or any other similar modes) and
>> begrudgingly RTTY"
>>
>> You may not be entirely convinced, but the R&O is pretty clear:
>>
>> Finally, we agree with commenters that limiting digital operation to a
>> specific technique
>> discourages the further development of additional techniques, which
>> may be more efficient than those
>> currently in use. >>>Therefore, we permit an amateur station
>> transmitting RTTY emission 60H0J2B or data
>> emission 2K80J2D to use any unspecified digital code, subject to the
>> requirements of Section 97.309(b).<<<
>>
>> Note the highlighted part. Any unspecified digital code may be used.
>> FT8 falls under that and is not illegal on 60m.
>>
>> 73
>> Ria, N2RJ
>>
>> On Fri, 21 Feb 2020 at 22:42, Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hassan, I'm going to pick out a bit of info here... you stated that being able to use full bandwidth for SSB, but only the bandwidth of a single transmission on digital, which for this band is CW, (on off, not modulated) PSK31, PACTORIII, and RTTY, RTTY seems to have been added begrudgingly, but the important things of note are 1. WE ARE SECONDARY ON THIS BAND! , not primary, so we exist here only as long as we do things the way we won't get in trouble, we may get a slice of the band at some point, but we need to prove our ability to abide by the rules. 2, the band poster is pretty clear on the rules for this band,  it really is, 3. when you consider the types of use the primary users of the band have for it, (governmental) it makes sense that it would be one station transmitting at a time, period, if you transmit over someone else's transmission, you are causing interference. if you can't hear the station, it's unintentional, if you do it and you KNOW there's someone transmitting, it's INTENTIONAL INTERFERENCE, and against FCC regs anyway...like if you're hearing a pileup and everyone's running 50 watts, and you decide to heck with them, I'm going to make this contact if it kills me and slam them with a beam and full legal limit, you're breaking the intent of the rules. going back to the use, we are secondary, if you have 35 stations clogging up the channel, it would take much more time to tell each person QRT than the one or two that it would be.
>> >
>> > think of it this way, we are "BORROWING" the car... what rules should you follow when you borrow the car? the ones the person that let you use the car has, along with all local laws... don't get it dirty, don't wreck it, don't leave dirty diapers or used condoms in it don't do something that makes the person that has the car say I don't think I want to let you borrow the car again.
>> >
>> > the rules on this band are restrictive for a reason, just as their own internal rules are on the band. I'm not even entirely convinced that it's legal for us to use FT8 on this band AT ALL because they don't specify it, they mention CW, PSK31, PACTORIII (not AMTOR or any other similar modes) and begrudgingly RTTY
>> >
>> > Seannon, AG0NY
>> >
>> > Only one signal at a time is permitted on any channel." (From ARRL Band Poster)
>> > http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/Band%20Chart/Band%20Chart%20-%2011X17%20Color.pdf
>> >
>> > More on Center of Channel ( 1500 Hz) Requirement:
>> >
>> > "With your PSK31 software display configured to indicate audio frequencies, click your mouse cursor at the 1500 Hz mark (see below). With your radio in the USB mode, this marker indicates the center of the channel and it is the frequency on which you should be transmitting."
>> >
>> > There is no special exemption for FT8, the same center channel rule applies.
>> >
>> > In Summary from the ARRL:
>> >
>> > 1. Only one station may transmit at a time.
>> > 2. They must be at he CENTER of the allocated channel (1500 Hz)
>> > 3. NTIA has defined "on channel" as precisely 1.5 kHz below the assigned channel frequency.
>> >
>> > These are highly restrictive and have NOT been enforced. I posted my initial "Be Careful" message, because I was warned by someone familiar with the upcoming ARRL take-over of the FCC certified Monitoring Program, that once the new program had officially started : ENFORCEMENT WOULD BE FORTHCOMING and the enforcement will include referrals to the FCC for action.
>> >
>> > Unfortunately, the comment below reflects the attitude of many USA amateurs:
>> >
>> >  "If the FCC is that concerned about legitimate FT8 use within that 2.8 KHz BW, they need to clarify their own rules and rationale and make this clarification known.  Because right now, its as clear as mud.  "Field Day" for lawyers, so to speak."
>> >
>> > But the rules ARE clear here, there's a power level, compared to known quantity, they specifically give both CW center frequencies and USB frequencies as "Channels" they also give specific emissions types that are allowed, also, don't transmit when you can hear a station transmitting (only one station transmitting at any time) now, as for the rationale? that's not for us really, we have the rules to follow.
>> >
>> > As a result,  the 60m requirements for digital, (FT8 included), have been summarily ignored if not outright violated. I, myself did so, because I did not understand how one could reasonably operate a full SSB bandwidth and that was ok, but could not use the entire 2.8 kHz bandwidth for multiple narrow band FT8 transmissions. It makes NO sense. But....the rule is unforgiving and I have been told they are going to enforce it.
>> > It makes much more sense when you consider the government as primary, with us as secondary, it would take much more time to contact 20-30 stations to tell them to QRT than one or two governments would not try to stuff a ton of traffic in a single channel like this, they go for reliable communications over efficiency, unlike hams
>> >
>> >
>> > Only one signal at a time is permitted on any channel." (From ARRL Band Poster)
>> > http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/Band%20Chart/Band%20Chart%20-%2011X17%20Color.pdf
>> >
>> > More on Center of Channel ( 1500 Hz) Requirement:
>> >
>> > "With your PSK31 software display configured to indicate audio frequencies, click your mouse cursor at the 1500 Hz mark (see below). With your radio in the USB mode, this marker indicates the center of the channel and it is the frequency on which you should be transmitting."
>> >
>> > There is no special exemption for FT8, the same center channel rule applies.
>> >
>> > In Summary from the ARRL:
>> >
>> > 1. Only one station may transmit at a time.
>> > 2. They must be at he CENTER of the allocated channel (1500 Hz)
>> > 3. NTIA has defined "on channel" as precisely 1.5 kHz below the assigned channel frequency.
>> >
>> > These are highly restrictive and have NOT been enforced. I posted my initial "Be Careful" message, because I was warned by someone familiar with the upcoming ARRL take-over of the FCC certified Monitoring Program, that once the new program had officially started : ENFORCEMENT WOULD BE FORTHCOMING and the enforcement will include referrals to the FCC for action.
>> >
>> > Unfortunately, the comment below reflects the attitude of many USA amateurs:
>> >
>> >  "If the FCC is that concerned about legitimate FT8 use within that 2.8 KHz BW, they need to clarify their own rules and rationale and make this clarification known.  Because right now, its as clear as mud.  "Field Day" for lawyers, so to speak."
>> > The rules are pretty well spelled out, look at the chart above, there's channel info and conversions, , center channels, power requirements in relation to a specific antenna, and emissions modes (PSK31, PACTORIII not AMTOR or similar modes and RTTY, so it's questionable as to the legality of FT8 here anyway.
>> > As a result,  the 60m requirements for digital, (FT8 included), have been summarily ignored if not outright violated. I, myself did so, because I did not understand how one could reasonably operate a full SSB bandwidth and that was ok, but could not use the entire 2.8 kHz bandwidth for multiple narrow band FT8 transmissions. It makes NO sense. But....the rule is unforgiving and I have been told they are going to enforce it.
>> > It makes a lot more sense when you consider the PRIMARY on the band, and not us as amateurs that are secondary. governments would use this as close to a clear channel for simplicity's sake especially true in emergency communications, or wartime, so, if you hear someone transmitting, wait, don't transmit on top of them, it could be life or death. We as hams like to make the case for efficiency, the government for reliable communications
>> >
>> > I have advocated one thing and one thing only: Be Careful. I don't have horse this race. It would be a shame, however, if we lost this allocation or someone would get a QSL card from the FCC because they refused to exercise some caution in the matter.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I have advocated one thing and one thing only: Be Careful. I don't have horse this race. It would be a shame, however, if we lost this allocation or someone would get a QSL card from the FCC because they refused to exercise some caution in the matter.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 7:55 AM Hasan Schiers N0AN <hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> From the ARRL:
>> >> These are channel-center frequencies, not the ones you tune your radio to. The NTIA told the FCC that hams "must assure that their signal is transmitted on the channel-center frequency." This means the amateur signal must be centered within the 2.8-kHz-wide channel. The FCC has provided scant guidance beyond suggesting--in a footnote that follows the NTIA's advice--that amateurs tune 1.5 kHz below the center-channel frequencies to be "on channel." Amateurs need to be sure that the tuning display readout reflects transmitted (ie, carrier) frequency (most do). Consult your transceiver's manual if you're not sure.
>> >>
>> >> From the ARRL:
>> >> In addition, the FCC continues to require that all digital transmissions be centered on the channel-center frequencies, which the Report and Order defines as being 1.5 kHz above the suppressed carrier frequency of a transceiver operated in the Upper Sideband (USB) mode. This is typically the frequency shown on the frequency display.
>> >>
>> >> (Note that this does not say 1580, 1320, 700, ...it says 1.5 kHz) my comment, not ARRL's)
>> >>
>> >> http://www.arrl.org/60m-channel-allocation
>> >> "Operating at strict channel-center frequencies may come as a disappointment to many, but cooperating with the NTIA is key to expanded privileges in the future.
>> >> The channel center frequencies are":..snipped...60 meters
>> >>
>> >> "Only one signal at a time is permitted on any channel." (From ARRL Band Poster)
>> >> http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/Band%20Chart/Band%20Chart%20-%2011X17%20Color.pdf
>> >>
>> >> More on Center of Channel ( 1500 Hz) Requirement:
>> >>
>> >> "With your PSK31 software display configured to indicate audio frequencies, click your mouse cursor at the 1500 Hz mark (see below). With your radio in the USB mode, this marker indicates the center of the channel and it is the frequency on which you should be transmitting."
>> >>
>> >> There is no special exemption for FT8, the same center channel rule applies.
>> >>
>> >> In Summary from the ARRL:
>> >>
>> >> 1. Only one station may transmit at a time.
>> >> 2. They must be at he CENTER of the allocated channel (1500 Hz)
>> >> 3. NTIA has defined "on channel" as precisely 1.5 kHz below the assigned channel frequency.
>> >>
>> >> These are highly restrictive and have NOT been enforced. I posted my initial "Be Careful" message, because I was warned by someone familiar with the upcoming ARRL take-over of the FCC certified Monitoring Program, that once the new program had officially started : ENFORCEMENT WOULD BE FORTHCOMING and the enforcement will include referrals to the FCC for action.
>> >>
>> >> Unfortunately, the comment below reflects the attitude of many USA amateurs:
>> >>
>> >>  "If the FCC is that concerned about legitimate FT8 use within that 2.8 KHz BW, they need to clarify their own rules and rationale and make this clarification known.  Because right now, its as clear as mud.  "Field Day" for lawyers, so to speak."
>> >>
>> >> As a result,  the 60m requirements for digital, (FT8 included), have been summarily ignored if not outright violated. I, myself did so, because I did not understand how one could reasonably operate a full SSB bandwidth and that was ok, but could not use the entire 2.8 kHz bandwidth for multiple narrow band FT8 transmissions. It makes NO sense. But....the rule is unforgiving and I have been told they are going to enforce it.
>> >>
>> >> I have advocated one thing and one thing only: Be Careful. I don't have horse this race. It would be a shame, however, if we lost this allocation or someone would get a QSL card from the FCC because they refused to exercise some caution in the matter.
>> >>
>> >> 73, N0AN
>> >> Hasan
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 5:41 AM Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Also, it clearly states that no more than one station transmit at any given time thus also limiting to a conversational rather than a transactional contact type. (If you hear a conversation, don't transmit, if you hear a CQ, answer it unless you hear someone else answering)
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Seannon, ag0ny
>> >>>
>> >>> On Thu, Feb 20, 2020, 05:15 Nc8q-mesh@... <nc8q-mesh@...> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On 2/20/20 5:17 AM, Hasan Schiers N0AN wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Again, ARRL have *on multiple occasions* reported communications from
>> >>>> FCC Enforcement staff (and NTIA who are responsible for the "60 M
>> >>>> band") reminding US licensed amateurs that 97.303(h) requires using
>> >>>> *identical* audio frequency and carrier offsets so that the transmitted
>> >>>> signal is centered exactly on the middle of the assigned "Channel" -
>> >>>> not generating a random offset within a 2.7 KHz "band".
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> IMHO, this discussion of operating FT8 on 60 meters deserves its own thread.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>  From looking at the waterfall display (Wide Graph),
>> >>>> it seems to me that a FT8 Tx frequency of 1500 indicates signals from
>> >>>> 'dial frequency + 1500 Hz' to 'dial frequency + ~1548 Hz'.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The get TX signals centered on 1500 Hz,
>> >>>>  would it not require setting WSJTX to 1476 Hz ?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Chuck
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > “It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”
>> >
>> > Nikola Tesla
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
> --
> “It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”
>
> Nikola Tesla
>
>
>



--

“It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”

Nikola Tesla

 


locked Re: 60 meters: Operating guidelines for FT8

Jim Brown
 

On 2/21/2020 10:27 PM, Ria, N2RJ wrote:
FT8 doesn’t have a carrier. It’s SSB suppressed carrier. It’s FSK and its signal shifts during transmission. The word “may” and not “required” is used. So the part about where 60m FT8 must operate dead center is not really backed by anything.
Ria,

Your logic for "not dead center" flawed. Otherwise I'm with you. An FT8 signal is NOT an SSB signal, it is an FT8 signal. WSJT-X is written so that an SSB transmitter can generate any of a dozen or so different signals, including FT8, in much the same way that other software uses an SSB transmitter to RTTY, PSK31, Olivias, etc.

Put another way, every FT8 signal occupies that 50Hz bandwidth somewhere above the nominal SSB carrier, and there can be hundreds of them. Narrow down a receiver in CW mode and tune past them -- each is a different signal, using digital modulation.

73, Jim K9YC


locked Re: 60 meters: Operating guidelines for FT8

Seannon Baker (AG0NY)
 

exactly my point, we can only transmit on the 1500 hz, that's our rule, we have to follow our rules, non US hams have other rules they have to abide by..


are you saying that we do not have to stick with the center frequency? show me where it says that please? because that's very clear to me, especially with them being very clear on using the center frequency 1500hz up from carrier


On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 12:44 AM Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...> wrote:
That’s not what the regulations say. 

Also, FCC and NTIA have no jurisdiction on foreign hams, who are allowed generally to operate where they pleAse. A lot of the traffic is DX

Ria
N2RJ 

On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 1:32 AM Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:
not when it's used like it is on the other bands
there's only ONE spot (1500hz) we US hams can transmit on, and cannot when others are transmitting on the channel that's right there on the band chart.

Seannon AG0NY

On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 12:15 AM Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...> wrote:
97.307(f)(14) has the table of allowed emissions for 60m. It states that 2K80J2D is an allowed emission type. FT8 is a J2D emission that is less than 2.8kHz in bandwidth therefore it falls under that.

Pactor-3 and PSK31 were only listed as examples, presumably because they were popular at the time. 

FT8 is absolutely legal on 60m. 

73
Ria, N2RJ 

On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 12:53 AM Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:
except the R&O is not the law, CFAR is, it specifically states PACTORIII, PSK31 CW and RTTY not all iterations of these emissions codes, so, no, it's NOT clear there, but, that's my interpretation, it's questionable to me that FT8 is appropriate. if you JUST go by the emissions code, then it's legal go ahead, but another thing they're VERY specific on, which is kinda antithetical to how FT8 works, is "no more than one transmission on the channel at any time" and you can only operate on the exact frequency, not wherever you want in the passband.
take it how you want, just please don't ruin it for the rest of us?
Seannon AG0NY

On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 11:24 PM Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...> wrote:
The R&O is crystal clear.

28. Finally, we agree with commenters that limiting digital operation
to a specific technique
discourages the further development of additional techniques, which
may be more efficient than those
currently in use. Therefore, we permit an amateur station transmitting
RTTY emission 60H0J2B or data
emission 2K80J2D to use any unspecified digital code, subject to the
requirements of Section 97.309(b).

Again, "we permit an amateur station transmitting RTTY emission 60H0J2B or data
emission 2K80J2D to use any unspecified digital code, subject to the
requirements of Section 97.309(b)" - this means that ANY digital code
can be used, provided it's not obscured (encrypted),

2K80J2D is simply "Data" which covers FT8 and is an allowed emission type.

Here is a refresher on how to read the emission types:

2K80 - Bandwidth not to exceed 2.8kHz (meaning, any bandwidth up to 2.80kHz
J - Amplitude Modulation, Single Sideband, Suppressed Carrier - Check
2 - Digital with modulation - Check
D - Data, telecommand or telemetry - Check

Any reasonable person can therefore conclude that FT8 is not illegal
on 60 metres under US rules..

Hope this helps.

73
Ria, N2RJ


On Sat, 22 Feb 2020 at 00:04, Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:
>
> from the R&O here... https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2012/02/03/2012-2477https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2012/02/03/2012-2477/amateur-radio-use-of-the-allocation-at-5-mhz/amateur-radio-use-of-the-allocation-at-5-mhz
>
>
> 9. Under the existing rules, only upper sideband voice transmissions are permitted in the 60 meter band. In the NPRM, the Commission proposed to authorize the use of three additional emission designators in the band: CW emission 150HA1A, which is Morse telegraphy by means of on-off keying, and data emissions 2K80J2D and 60H0J2B. In § 97.307(f)(14)(i) of the proposed rules, the Commission restricts emission designator 2K80J2D to data using PACTOR-III technique and emission designator 60H0J2B to data using PSK31 technique. The Commission also sought comment on whether amateur stations could be permitted to transmit emission types in addition to those requested by ARRL in the 60 meter band without increasing the likelihood of interference to primary users. As discussed, the Commission adopts its proposal to allow the use of the three additional emission designators.
>
> 10. Emission Designators. Our proposal drew a wide range of responses. Although the majority of commenters fully or generally support the proposals that the Commission made in the NPRM, many commenters expressed concerns about some or all of the proposed new emission designators. Commenters were most supportive of the proposed addition of emission designators 150HA1A and 60H0J2B. By contrast, the proposal to add emission type 2K80J2D proved much more divisive. The record also includes a few commenters who are skeptical that additional emission types are appropriate for the 60 meter band.
>
> 12. Specific Techniques of the Data Emissions. Commenters strongly believe that the use of the emission designators 60H0J2B and 2K80J2D should not be restricted to the specific techniques of PSK31 and PACTOR-III, respectively. This approach differs from what was proposed in the NPRM. This is why I question the legality of FT8, it SPECIFICALLY STATES EVERYWHERE PACTORIII, not PACTORIII and other2k80J2D emissions. specifically PACTORIII and PSK31. I agree it "SHOULDN'T matter, but it quite possibly DOES matter. also, it SPECIFICALLY STATES PSK31, CW, PACTORIII and RTTY on the band charts
>
> 14. The Commission recognizes that many commenters are concerned that the addition of new emission types— data emission types in general and PACTOR-III specifically—holds the risk of reducing the utility of these channels for many amateurs, especially for those who may not readily recognize data transmissions and may avoid use of the channels out of an abundance of caution. The Commission concludes that there are ways to minimize any potential disruption that the new emission types could cause. ARRL notes that amateur “stations typically utilize relatively short transmissions in telegraphy and are able to manually detect the presence of a non-Amateur signal within the channel bandwidth while operating in that mode” and that the “same is true of 60H0J2B and 2K80J2D emissions, if careful manual operating practices are used.” Moreover, ARRL commits to the necessary dissemination of “best practices” information to the amateur community on a timely basis and to the adoption and publication of a comprehensive band plan for these channels that will maintain maximum flexibility in Amateur use without interference. Lastly, the Commission adopts certain operational rules, which will serve to ensure that the new emission types are used in a manner that promotes continued shared use of the band by all. do you listen to your radio on the digital modes? or just use the waterfall?
>
> Seannon AG0NY
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> (ii) The following requirements also apply:
>
> (A) When transmitting the phone, RTTY, and data emissions, the suppressed carrier frequency may be set as specified in § 97.303(h).
>
> (B) The control operator of a station transmitting data or RTTY emissions must exercise care to limit the length of transmission so as to avoid causing harmful interference to United States Government stations.
>
> 8. Section 97.313 is amended by revising paragraphs (f) and (i) to read as follows.
>
> § 97.313
> Transmitter power standards.
> * * * * *
>
> (f) No station may transmit with a transmitter power exceeding 50 W PEP on the UHF 70 cm band from an area specified in paragraph (a) of footnote US270 in § 2.106, unless expressly authorized by the FCC after mutual agreement, on a case-by-case basis, between the District Director of the applicable field facility and the military area frequency coordinator at the applicable military base. An Earth station or telecommand station, however, may transmit on the 435-438 MHz segment with a maximum of 611 W effective radiated power (1 kW equivalent isotropically radiated power) without the authorization otherwise required. The transmitting antenna elevation angle between the lower half-power (−3 dB relative to the peak or antenna bore sight) point and the horizon must always be greater than 10°.
>
> * * * * *
>
> (i) No station may transmit with an effective radiated power (ERP) exceeding 100 W PEP on the 60 m band. For the purpose of computing ERP, the transmitter PEP will be multiplied by the antenna gain relative to a half-wave dipole antenna. A half-wave dipole antenna will be presumed to have a gain of 1 (0 dBd). Licensees using other antennas must maintain in their station records either the antenna manufacturer's data on the antenna gain or calculations of the antenna gain.
>
> * * * * *
>
> Footnotes
>
> 1. The RFA, see 5 U.S.C. 601-612, has been amended by the Small Business Regulatory Enforcement Fairness Act of 1996 (SBREFA), Public Law 104-121, Title II, 110 Stat. 857 (1996).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 2. 5 U.S.C. 605(b).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 3. 5 U.S.C. 601(6).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 4. 5 U.S.C. 601(3) (incorporating by reference the definition of “small business concern” in the Small Business Act, 15 U.S.C. 632). Pursuant to 5 U.S.C. 601(3), the statutory definition of a small business applies “unless an agency, after consultation with the Office of Advocacy of the Small Business Administration and after opportunity for public comment, establishes one or more definitions of such term which are appropriate to the activities of the agency and publishes such definition(s) in the Federal Register.”
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 5. 15 U.S.C. 632.
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 6. See 5 U.S.C. 605(b).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 7. See 5 U.S.C. 801(a)(1)(A).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 8. See 5 U.S.C. 604(b).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> BILLING CODE 6712-01-P
>
> BILLING CODE 6712-01-C
>
> [FR Doc. 2012-2477 Filed 2-2-12; 8:45 am]
>
> BILLING CODE 6712-01-P
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 10:07 PM Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...> wrote:
>>
>> "I'm not even entirely convinced that it's legal for us to use FT8 on
>> this band AT ALL because they don't specify it, they mention CW,
>> PSK31, PACTORIII (not AMTOR or any other similar modes) and
>> begrudgingly RTTY"
>>
>> You may not be entirely convinced, but the R&O is pretty clear:
>>
>> Finally, we agree with commenters that limiting digital operation to a
>> specific technique
>> discourages the further development of additional techniques, which
>> may be more efficient than those
>> currently in use. >>>Therefore, we permit an amateur station
>> transmitting RTTY emission 60H0J2B or data
>> emission 2K80J2D to use any unspecified digital code, subject to the
>> requirements of Section 97.309(b).<<<
>>
>> Note the highlighted part. Any unspecified digital code may be used.
>> FT8 falls under that and is not illegal on 60m.
>>
>> 73
>> Ria, N2RJ
>>
>> On Fri, 21 Feb 2020 at 22:42, Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hassan, I'm going to pick out a bit of info here... you stated that being able to use full bandwidth for SSB, but only the bandwidth of a single transmission on digital, which for this band is CW, (on off, not modulated) PSK31, PACTORIII, and RTTY, RTTY seems to have been added begrudgingly, but the important things of note are 1. WE ARE SECONDARY ON THIS BAND! , not primary, so we exist here only as long as we do things the way we won't get in trouble, we may get a slice of the band at some point, but we need to prove our ability to abide by the rules. 2, the band poster is pretty clear on the rules for this band,  it really is, 3. when you consider the types of use the primary users of the band have for it, (governmental) it makes sense that it would be one station transmitting at a time, period, if you transmit over someone else's transmission, you are causing interference. if you can't hear the station, it's unintentional, if you do it and you KNOW there's someone transmitting, it's INTENTIONAL INTERFERENCE, and against FCC regs anyway...like if you're hearing a pileup and everyone's running 50 watts, and you decide to heck with them, I'm going to make this contact if it kills me and slam them with a beam and full legal limit, you're breaking the intent of the rules. going back to the use, we are secondary, if you have 35 stations clogging up the channel, it would take much more time to tell each person QRT than the one or two that it would be.
>> >
>> > think of it this way, we are "BORROWING" the car... what rules should you follow when you borrow the car? the ones the person that let you use the car has, along with all local laws... don't get it dirty, don't wreck it, don't leave dirty diapers or used condoms in it don't do something that makes the person that has the car say I don't think I want to let you borrow the car again.
>> >
>> > the rules on this band are restrictive for a reason, just as their own internal rules are on the band. I'm not even entirely convinced that it's legal for us to use FT8 on this band AT ALL because they don't specify it, they mention CW, PSK31, PACTORIII (not AMTOR or any other similar modes) and begrudgingly RTTY
>> >
>> > Seannon, AG0NY
>> >
>> > Only one signal at a time is permitted on any channel." (From ARRL Band Poster)
>> > http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/Band%20Chart/Band%20Chart%20-%2011X17%20Color.pdf
>> >
>> > More on Center of Channel ( 1500 Hz) Requirement:
>> >
>> > "With your PSK31 software display configured to indicate audio frequencies, click your mouse cursor at the 1500 Hz mark (see below). With your radio in the USB mode, this marker indicates the center of the channel and it is the frequency on which you should be transmitting."
>> >
>> > There is no special exemption for FT8, the same center channel rule applies.
>> >
>> > In Summary from the ARRL:
>> >
>> > 1. Only one station may transmit at a time.
>> > 2. They must be at he CENTER of the allocated channel (1500 Hz)
>> > 3. NTIA has defined "on channel" as precisely 1.5 kHz below the assigned channel frequency.
>> >
>> > These are highly restrictive and have NOT been enforced. I posted my initial "Be Careful" message, because I was warned by someone familiar with the upcoming ARRL take-over of the FCC certified Monitoring Program, that once the new program had officially started : ENFORCEMENT WOULD BE FORTHCOMING and the enforcement will include referrals to the FCC for action.
>> >
>> > Unfortunately, the comment below reflects the attitude of many USA amateurs:
>> >
>> >  "If the FCC is that concerned about legitimate FT8 use within that 2.8 KHz BW, they need to clarify their own rules and rationale and make this clarification known.  Because right now, its as clear as mud.  "Field Day" for lawyers, so to speak."
>> >
>> > But the rules ARE clear here, there's a power level, compared to known quantity, they specifically give both CW center frequencies and USB frequencies as "Channels" they also give specific emissions types that are allowed, also, don't transmit when you can hear a station transmitting (only one station transmitting at any time) now, as for the rationale? that's not for us really, we have the rules to follow.
>> >
>> > As a result,  the 60m requirements for digital, (FT8 included), have been summarily ignored if not outright violated. I, myself did so, because I did not understand how one could reasonably operate a full SSB bandwidth and that was ok, but could not use the entire 2.8 kHz bandwidth for multiple narrow band FT8 transmissions. It makes NO sense. But....the rule is unforgiving and I have been told they are going to enforce it.
>> > It makes much more sense when you consider the government as primary, with us as secondary, it would take much more time to contact 20-30 stations to tell them to QRT than one or two governments would not try to stuff a ton of traffic in a single channel like this, they go for reliable communications over efficiency, unlike hams
>> >
>> >
>> > Only one signal at a time is permitted on any channel." (From ARRL Band Poster)
>> > http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/Band%20Chart/Band%20Chart%20-%2011X17%20Color.pdf
>> >
>> > More on Center of Channel ( 1500 Hz) Requirement:
>> >
>> > "With your PSK31 software display configured to indicate audio frequencies, click your mouse cursor at the 1500 Hz mark (see below). With your radio in the USB mode, this marker indicates the center of the channel and it is the frequency on which you should be transmitting."
>> >
>> > There is no special exemption for FT8, the same center channel rule applies.
>> >
>> > In Summary from the ARRL:
>> >
>> > 1. Only one station may transmit at a time.
>> > 2. They must be at he CENTER of the allocated channel (1500 Hz)
>> > 3. NTIA has defined "on channel" as precisely 1.5 kHz below the assigned channel frequency.
>> >
>> > These are highly restrictive and have NOT been enforced. I posted my initial "Be Careful" message, because I was warned by someone familiar with the upcoming ARRL take-over of the FCC certified Monitoring Program, that once the new program had officially started : ENFORCEMENT WOULD BE FORTHCOMING and the enforcement will include referrals to the FCC for action.
>> >
>> > Unfortunately, the comment below reflects the attitude of many USA amateurs:
>> >
>> >  "If the FCC is that concerned about legitimate FT8 use within that 2.8 KHz BW, they need to clarify their own rules and rationale and make this clarification known.  Because right now, its as clear as mud.  "Field Day" for lawyers, so to speak."
>> > The rules are pretty well spelled out, look at the chart above, there's channel info and conversions, , center channels, power requirements in relation to a specific antenna, and emissions modes (PSK31, PACTORIII not AMTOR or similar modes and RTTY, so it's questionable as to the legality of FT8 here anyway.
>> > As a result,  the 60m requirements for digital, (FT8 included), have been summarily ignored if not outright violated. I, myself did so, because I did not understand how one could reasonably operate a full SSB bandwidth and that was ok, but could not use the entire 2.8 kHz bandwidth for multiple narrow band FT8 transmissions. It makes NO sense. But....the rule is unforgiving and I have been told they are going to enforce it.
>> > It makes a lot more sense when you consider the PRIMARY on the band, and not us as amateurs that are secondary. governments would use this as close to a clear channel for simplicity's sake especially true in emergency communications, or wartime, so, if you hear someone transmitting, wait, don't transmit on top of them, it could be life or death. We as hams like to make the case for efficiency, the government for reliable communications
>> >
>> > I have advocated one thing and one thing only: Be Careful. I don't have horse this race. It would be a shame, however, if we lost this allocation or someone would get a QSL card from the FCC because they refused to exercise some caution in the matter.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I have advocated one thing and one thing only: Be Careful. I don't have horse this race. It would be a shame, however, if we lost this allocation or someone would get a QSL card from the FCC because they refused to exercise some caution in the matter.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 7:55 AM Hasan Schiers N0AN <hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> From the ARRL:
>> >> These are channel-center frequencies, not the ones you tune your radio to. The NTIA told the FCC that hams "must assure that their signal is transmitted on the channel-center frequency." This means the amateur signal must be centered within the 2.8-kHz-wide channel. The FCC has provided scant guidance beyond suggesting--in a footnote that follows the NTIA's advice--that amateurs tune 1.5 kHz below the center-channel frequencies to be "on channel." Amateurs need to be sure that the tuning display readout reflects transmitted (ie, carrier) frequency (most do). Consult your transceiver's manual if you're not sure.
>> >>
>> >> From the ARRL:
>> >> In addition, the FCC continues to require that all digital transmissions be centered on the channel-center frequencies, which the Report and Order defines as being 1.5 kHz above the suppressed carrier frequency of a transceiver operated in the Upper Sideband (USB) mode. This is typically the frequency shown on the frequency display.
>> >>
>> >> (Note that this does not say 1580, 1320, 700, ...it says 1.5 kHz) my comment, not ARRL's)
>> >>
>> >> http://www.arrl.org/60m-channel-allocation
>> >> "Operating at strict channel-center frequencies may come as a disappointment to many, but cooperating with the NTIA is key to expanded privileges in the future.
>> >> The channel center frequencies are":..snipped...60 meters
>> >>
>> >> "Only one signal at a time is permitted on any channel." (From ARRL Band Poster)
>> >> http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/Band%20Chart/Band%20Chart%20-%2011X17%20Color.pdf
>> >>
>> >> More on Center of Channel ( 1500 Hz) Requirement:
>> >>
>> >> "With your PSK31 software display configured to indicate audio frequencies, click your mouse cursor at the 1500 Hz mark (see below). With your radio in the USB mode, this marker indicates the center of the channel and it is the frequency on which you should be transmitting."
>> >>
>> >> There is no special exemption for FT8, the same center channel rule applies.
>> >>
>> >> In Summary from the ARRL:
>> >>
>> >> 1. Only one station may transmit at a time.
>> >> 2. They must be at he CENTER of the allocated channel (1500 Hz)
>> >> 3. NTIA has defined "on channel" as precisely 1.5 kHz below the assigned channel frequency.
>> >>
>> >> These are highly restrictive and have NOT been enforced. I posted my initial "Be Careful" message, because I was warned by someone familiar with the upcoming ARRL take-over of the FCC certified Monitoring Program, that once the new program had officially started : ENFORCEMENT WOULD BE FORTHCOMING and the enforcement will include referrals to the FCC for action.
>> >>
>> >> Unfortunately, the comment below reflects the attitude of many USA amateurs:
>> >>
>> >>  "If the FCC is that concerned about legitimate FT8 use within that 2.8 KHz BW, they need to clarify their own rules and rationale and make this clarification known.  Because right now, its as clear as mud.  "Field Day" for lawyers, so to speak."
>> >>
>> >> As a result,  the 60m requirements for digital, (FT8 included), have been summarily ignored if not outright violated. I, myself did so, because I did not understand how one could reasonably operate a full SSB bandwidth and that was ok, but could not use the entire 2.8 kHz bandwidth for multiple narrow band FT8 transmissions. It makes NO sense. But....the rule is unforgiving and I have been told they are going to enforce it.
>> >>
>> >> I have advocated one thing and one thing only: Be Careful. I don't have horse this race. It would be a shame, however, if we lost this allocation or someone would get a QSL card from the FCC because they refused to exercise some caution in the matter.
>> >>
>> >> 73, N0AN
>> >> Hasan
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 5:41 AM Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Also, it clearly states that no more than one station transmit at any given time thus also limiting to a conversational rather than a transactional contact type. (If you hear a conversation, don't transmit, if you hear a CQ, answer it unless you hear someone else answering)
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Seannon, ag0ny
>> >>>
>> >>> On Thu, Feb 20, 2020, 05:15 Nc8q-mesh@... <nc8q-mesh@...> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On 2/20/20 5:17 AM, Hasan Schiers N0AN wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Again, ARRL have *on multiple occasions* reported communications from
>> >>>> FCC Enforcement staff (and NTIA who are responsible for the "60 M
>> >>>> band") reminding US licensed amateurs that 97.303(h) requires using
>> >>>> *identical* audio frequency and carrier offsets so that the transmitted
>> >>>> signal is centered exactly on the middle of the assigned "Channel" -
>> >>>> not generating a random offset within a 2.7 KHz "band".
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> IMHO, this discussion of operating FT8 on 60 meters deserves its own thread.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>  From looking at the waterfall display (Wide Graph),
>> >>>> it seems to me that a FT8 Tx frequency of 1500 indicates signals from
>> >>>> 'dial frequency + 1500 Hz' to 'dial frequency + ~1548 Hz'.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The get TX signals centered on 1500 Hz,
>> >>>>  would it not require setting WSJTX to 1476 Hz ?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Chuck
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > “It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”
>> >
>> > Nikola Tesla
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
> --
> “It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”
>
> Nikola Tesla
>
>
>



--
“It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”

Nikola Tesla






--
“It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”

Nikola Tesla






--
“It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”

Nikola Tesla