Please just shut up already, Seannon.

 

Gary – W9BS

 

From: WSJTX@groups.io [mailto:WSJTX@groups.io] On Behalf Of Seannon Baker (AG0NY)
Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2020 1:27 AM
To: WSJTX@groups.io
Subject: Re: [WSJTX] 60 meters: Operating guidelines for FT8

 

I see you're a director with the ARRL, GREAT, giving a "refresher" to someone on how to read an emission type is, and always will be a bit snarky, I question FT8's appropriateness much more than lack of legality here, more because of the way FT8 is used. bunch of stations transmitting on slightly differing frequencies within a passband... it's efficient but not to the letter of the law (part 97) here in the states, we have 5 frequencies in the 60 meter band, all of the kerfuffle here is coming from ONE bright star mode that people are using (great!) worldwide OUT OF THE RULES SET BY THE FCC to the detriment OF THE PRIMARY USER OF THE BAND. it doesn't matter what they do in 9y, Germany, Russia, Antarctica...we MUST follow our rules or we may wind up not with extending further privileges, but by removal of them our spectra is valuable, there are attacks on why we need it given to us constantly. look at 11 meters... that used to be a ham band... possibly again but not if we can't take care of ourselves.

our service is the only one where certification for commercial entities follows an amateur lead, 2/3 of the GROL+ RADAR and a few less of the GMDSS OPERATOR/MAINTAINER tests came from amateur pools, we lead by example, not by force

 

Seannon, AG0NY, GROL+RADAR formerly GMDSS OPERATOR/MAINTAINER along with FAA Airframe and powerplant certification "A&P"

 

On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 11:24 PM Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...> wrote:

The R&O is crystal clear.

28. Finally, we agree with commenters that limiting digital operation
to a specific technique
discourages the further development of additional techniques, which
may be more efficient than those
currently in use. Therefore, we permit an amateur station transmitting
RTTY emission 60H0J2B or data
emission 2K80J2D to use any unspecified digital code, subject to the
requirements of Section 97.309(b).

Again, "we permit an amateur station transmitting RTTY emission 60H0J2B or data
emission 2K80J2D to use any unspecified digital code, subject to the
requirements of Section 97.309(b)" - this means that ANY digital code
can be used, provided it's not obscured (encrypted),

2K80J2D is simply "Data" which covers FT8 and is an allowed emission type.

Here is a refresher on how to read the emission types:

2K80 - Bandwidth not to exceed 2.8kHz (meaning, any bandwidth up to 2.80kHz
J - Amplitude Modulation, Single Sideband, Suppressed Carrier - Check
2 - Digital with modulation - Check
D - Data, telecommand or telemetry - Check

Any reasonable person can therefore conclude that FT8 is not illegal
on 60 metres under US rules..

Hope this helps.

73
Ria, N2RJ


On Sat, 22 Feb 2020 at 00:04, Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:
>
> from the R&O here... https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2012/02/03/2012-2477https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2012/02/03/2012-2477/amateur-radio-use-of-the-allocation-at-5-mhz/amateur-radio-use-of-the-allocation-at-5-mhz
>
>
> 9. Under the existing rules, only upper sideband voice transmissions are permitted in the 60 meter band. In the NPRM, the Commission proposed to authorize the use of three additional emission designators in the band: CW emission 150HA1A, which is Morse telegraphy by means of on-off keying, and data emissions 2K80J2D and 60H0J2B. In § 97.307(f)(14)(i) of the proposed rules, the Commission restricts emission designator 2K80J2D to data using PACTOR-III technique and emission designator 60H0J2B to data using PSK31 technique. The Commission also sought comment on whether amateur stations could be permitted to transmit emission types in addition to those requested by ARRL in the 60 meter band without increasing the likelihood of interference to primary users. As discussed, the Commission adopts its proposal to allow the use of the three additional emission designators.
>
> 10. Emission Designators. Our proposal drew a wide range of responses. Although the majority of commenters fully or generally support the proposals that the Commission made in the NPRM, many commenters expressed concerns about some or all of the proposed new emission designators. Commenters were most supportive of the proposed addition of emission designators 150HA1A and 60H0J2B. By contrast, the proposal to add emission type 2K80J2D proved much more divisive. The record also includes a few commenters who are skeptical that additional emission types are appropriate for the 60 meter band.
>
> 12. Specific Techniques of the Data Emissions. Commenters strongly believe that the use of the emission designators 60H0J2B and 2K80J2D should not be restricted to the specific techniques of PSK31 and PACTOR-III, respectively. This approach differs from what was proposed in the NPRM. This is why I question the legality of FT8, it SPECIFICALLY STATES EVERYWHERE PACTORIII, not PACTORIII and other2k80J2D emissions. specifically PACTORIII and PSK31. I agree it "SHOULDN'T matter, but it quite possibly DOES matter. also, it SPECIFICALLY STATES PSK31, CW, PACTORIII and RTTY on the band charts
>
> 14. The Commission recognizes that many commenters are concerned that the addition of new emission types— data emission types in general and PACTOR-III specifically—holds the risk of reducing the utility of these channels for many amateurs, especially for those who may not readily recognize data transmissions and may avoid use of the channels out of an abundance of caution. The Commission concludes that there are ways to minimize any potential disruption that the new emission types could cause. ARRL notes that amateur “stations typically utilize relatively short transmissions in telegraphy and are able to manually detect the presence of a non-Amateur signal within the channel bandwidth while operating in that mode” and that the “same is true of 60H0J2B and 2K80J2D emissions, if careful manual operating practices are used.” Moreover, ARRL commits to the necessary dissemination of “best practices” information to the amateur community on a timely basis and to the adoption and publication of a comprehensive band plan for these channels that will maintain maximum flexibility in Amateur use without interference. Lastly, the Commission adopts certain operational rules, which will serve to ensure that the new emission types are used in a manner that promotes continued shared use of the band by all. do you listen to your radio on the digital modes? or just use the waterfall?
>
> Seannon AG0NY
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> (ii) The following requirements also apply:
>
> (A) When transmitting the phone, RTTY, and data emissions, the suppressed carrier frequency may be set as specified in § 97.303(h).
>
> (B) The control operator of a station transmitting data or RTTY emissions must exercise care to limit the length of transmission so as to avoid causing harmful interference to United States Government stations.
>
> 8. Section 97.313 is amended by revising paragraphs (f) and (i) to read as follows.
>
> § 97.313
> Transmitter power standards.
> * * * * *
>
> (f) No station may transmit with a transmitter power exceeding 50 W PEP on the UHF 70 cm band from an area specified in paragraph (a) of footnote US270 in § 2.106, unless expressly authorized by the FCC after mutual agreement, on a case-by-case basis, between the District Director of the applicable field facility and the military area frequency coordinator at the applicable military base. An Earth station or telecommand station, however, may transmit on the 435-438 MHz segment with a maximum of 611 W effective radiated power (1 kW equivalent isotropically radiated power) without the authorization otherwise required. The transmitting antenna elevation angle between the lower half-power (−3 dB relative to the peak or antenna bore sight) point and the horizon must always be greater than 10°.
>
> * * * * *
>
> (i) No station may transmit with an effective radiated power (ERP) exceeding 100 W PEP on the 60 m band. For the purpose of computing ERP, the transmitter PEP will be multiplied by the antenna gain relative to a half-wave dipole antenna. A half-wave dipole antenna will be presumed to have a gain of 1 (0 dBd). Licensees using other antennas must maintain in their station records either the antenna manufacturer's data on the antenna gain or calculations of the antenna gain.
>
> * * * * *
>
> Footnotes
>
> 1. The RFA, see 5 U.S.C. 601-612, has been amended by the Small Business Regulatory Enforcement Fairness Act of 1996 (SBREFA), Public Law 104-121, Title II, 110 Stat. 857 (1996).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 2. 5 U.S.C. 605(b).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 3. 5 U.S.C. 601(6).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 4. 5 U.S.C. 601(3) (incorporating by reference the definition of “small business concern” in the Small Business Act, 15 U.S.C. 632). Pursuant to 5 U.S.C. 601(3), the statutory definition of a small business applies “unless an agency, after consultation with the Office of Advocacy of the Small Business Administration and after opportunity for public comment, establishes one or more definitions of such term which are appropriate to the activities of the agency and publishes such definition(s) in the Federal Register.”
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 5. 15 U.S.C. 632.
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 6. See 5 U.S.C. 605(b).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 7. See 5 U.S.C. 801(a)(1)(A).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> 8. See 5 U.S.C. 604(b).
>
> Back to Citation
>
> BILLING CODE 6712-01-P
>
> BILLING CODE 6712-01-C
>
> [FR Doc. 2012-2477 Filed 2-2-12; 8:45 am]
>
> BILLING CODE 6712-01-P
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 10:07 PM Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...> wrote:
>>
>> "I'm not even entirely convinced that it's legal for us to use FT8 on
>> this band AT ALL because they don't specify it, they mention CW,
>> PSK31, PACTORIII (not AMTOR or any other similar modes) and
>> begrudgingly RTTY"
>>
>> You may not be entirely convinced, but the R&O is pretty clear:
>>
>> Finally, we agree with commenters that limiting digital operation to a
>> specific technique
>> discourages the further development of additional techniques, which
>> may be more efficient than those
>> currently in use. >>>Therefore, we permit an amateur station
>> transmitting RTTY emission 60H0J2B or data
>> emission 2K80J2D to use any unspecified digital code, subject to the
>> requirements of Section 97.309(b).<<<
>>
>> Note the highlighted part. Any unspecified digital code may be used.
>> FT8 falls under that and is not illegal on 60m.
>>
>> 73
>> Ria, N2RJ
>>
>> On Fri, 21 Feb 2020 at 22:42, Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hassan, I'm going to pick out a bit of info here... you stated that being able to use full bandwidth for SSB, but only the bandwidth of a single transmission on digital, which for this band is CW, (on off, not modulated) PSK31, PACTORIII, and RTTY, RTTY seems to have been added begrudgingly, but the important things of note are 1. WE ARE SECONDARY ON THIS BAND! , not primary, so we exist here only as long as we do things the way we won't get in trouble, we may get a slice of the band at some point, but we need to prove our ability to abide by the rules. 2, the band poster is pretty clear on the rules for this band,  it really is, 3. when you consider the types of use the primary users of the band have for it, (governmental) it makes sense that it would be one station transmitting at a time, period, if you transmit over someone else's transmission, you are causing interference. if you can't hear the station, it's unintentional, if you do it and you KNOW there's someone transmitting, it's INTENTIONAL INTERFERENCE, and against FCC regs anyway...like if you're hearing a pileup and everyone's running 50 watts, and you decide to heck with them, I'm going to make this contact if it kills me and slam them with a beam and full legal limit, you're breaking the intent of the rules. going back to the use, we are secondary, if you have 35 stations clogging up the channel, it would take much more time to tell each person QRT than the one or two that it would be.
>> >
>> > think of it this way, we are "BORROWING" the car... what rules should you follow when you borrow the car? the ones the person that let you use the car has, along with all local laws... don't get it dirty, don't wreck it, don't leave dirty diapers or used condoms in it don't do something that makes the person that has the car say I don't think I want to let you borrow the car again.
>> >
>> > the rules on this band are restrictive for a reason, just as their own internal rules are on the band. I'm not even entirely convinced that it's legal for us to use FT8 on this band AT ALL because they don't specify it, they mention CW, PSK31, PACTORIII (not AMTOR or any other similar modes) and begrudgingly RTTY
>> >
>> > Seannon, AG0NY
>> >
>> > Only one signal at a time is permitted on any channel." (From ARRL Band Poster)
>> > http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/Band%20Chart/Band%20Chart%20-%2011X17%20Color.pdf
>> >
>> > More on Center of Channel ( 1500 Hz) Requirement:
>> >
>> > "With your PSK31 software display configured to indicate audio frequencies, click your mouse cursor at the 1500 Hz mark (see below). With your radio in the USB mode, this marker indicates the center of the channel and it is the frequency on which you should be transmitting."
>> >
>> > There is no special exemption for FT8, the same center channel rule applies.
>> >
>> > In Summary from the ARRL:
>> >
>> > 1. Only one station may transmit at a time.
>> > 2. They must be at he CENTER of the allocated channel (1500 Hz)
>> > 3. NTIA has defined "on channel" as precisely 1.5 kHz below the assigned channel frequency.
>> >
>> > These are highly restrictive and have NOT been enforced. I posted my initial "Be Careful" message, because I was warned by someone familiar with the upcoming ARRL take-over of the FCC certified Monitoring Program, that once the new program had officially started : ENFORCEMENT WOULD BE FORTHCOMING and the enforcement will include referrals to the FCC for action.
>> >
>> > Unfortunately, the comment below reflects the attitude of many USA amateurs:
>> >
>> >  "If the FCC is that concerned about legitimate FT8 use within that 2.8 KHz BW, they need to clarify their own rules and rationale and make this clarification known.  Because right now, its as clear as mud.  "Field Day" for lawyers, so to speak."
>> >
>> > But the rules ARE clear here, there's a power level, compared to known quantity, they specifically give both CW center frequencies and USB frequencies as "Channels" they also give specific emissions types that are allowed, also, don't transmit when you can hear a station transmitting (only one station transmitting at any time) now, as for the rationale? that's not for us really, we have the rules to follow.
>> >
>> > As a result,  the 60m requirements for digital, (FT8 included), have been summarily ignored if not outright violated. I, myself did so, because I did not understand how one could reasonably operate a full SSB bandwidth and that was ok, but could not use the entire 2.8 kHz bandwidth for multiple narrow band FT8 transmissions. It makes NO sense. But....the rule is unforgiving and I have been told they are going to enforce it.
>> > It makes much more sense when you consider the government as primary, with us as secondary, it would take much more time to contact 20-30 stations to tell them to QRT than one or two governments would not try to stuff a ton of traffic in a single channel like this, they go for reliable communications over efficiency, unlike hams
>> >
>> >
>> > Only one signal at a time is permitted on any channel." (From ARRL Band Poster)
>> > http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/Band%20Chart/Band%20Chart%20-%2011X17%20Color.pdf
>> >
>> > More on Center of Channel ( 1500 Hz) Requirement:
>> >
>> > "With your PSK31 software display configured to indicate audio frequencies, click your mouse cursor at the 1500 Hz mark (see below). With your radio in the USB mode, this marker indicates the center of the channel and it is the frequency on which you should be transmitting."
>> >
>> > There is no special exemption for FT8, the same center channel rule applies.
>> >
>> > In Summary from the ARRL:
>> >
>> > 1. Only one station may transmit at a time.
>> > 2. They must be at he CENTER of the allocated channel (1500 Hz)
>> > 3. NTIA has defined "on channel" as precisely 1.5 kHz below the assigned channel frequency.
>> >
>> > These are highly restrictive and have NOT been enforced. I posted my initial "Be Careful" message, because I was warned by someone familiar with the upcoming ARRL take-over of the FCC certified Monitoring Program, that once the new program had officially started : ENFORCEMENT WOULD BE FORTHCOMING and the enforcement will include referrals to the FCC for action.
>> >
>> > Unfortunately, the comment below reflects the attitude of many USA amateurs:
>> >
>> >  "If the FCC is that concerned about legitimate FT8 use within that 2.8 KHz BW, they need to clarify their own rules and rationale and make this clarification known.  Because right now, its as clear as mud.  "Field Day" for lawyers, so to speak."
>> > The rules are pretty well spelled out, look at the chart above, there's channel info and conversions, , center channels, power requirements in relation to a specific antenna, and emissions modes (PSK31, PACTORIII not AMTOR or similar modes and RTTY, so it's questionable as to the legality of FT8 here anyway.
>> > As a result,  the 60m requirements for digital, (FT8 included), have been summarily ignored if not outright violated. I, myself did so, because I did not understand how one could reasonably operate a full SSB bandwidth and that was ok, but could not use the entire 2.8 kHz bandwidth for multiple narrow band FT8 transmissions. It makes NO sense. But....the rule is unforgiving and I have been told they are going to enforce it.
>> > It makes a lot more sense when you consider the PRIMARY on the band, and not us as amateurs that are secondary. governments would use this as close to a clear channel for simplicity's sake especially true in emergency communications, or wartime, so, if you hear someone transmitting, wait, don't transmit on top of them, it could be life or death. We as hams like to make the case for efficiency, the government for reliable communications
>> >
>> > I have advocated one thing and one thing only: Be Careful. I don't have horse this race. It would be a shame, however, if we lost this allocation or someone would get a QSL card from the FCC because they refused to exercise some caution in the matter.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I have advocated one thing and one thing only: Be Careful. I don't have horse this race. It would be a shame, however, if we lost this allocation or someone would get a QSL card from the FCC because they refused to exercise some caution in the matter.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 7:55 AM Hasan Schiers N0AN <hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> From the ARRL:
>> >> These are channel-center frequencies, not the ones you tune your radio to. The NTIA told the FCC that hams "must assure that their signal is transmitted on the channel-center frequency." This means the amateur signal must be centered within the 2.8-kHz-wide channel. The FCC has provided scant guidance beyond suggesting--in a footnote that follows the NTIA's advice--that amateurs tune 1.5 kHz below the center-channel frequencies to be "on channel." Amateurs need to be sure that the tuning display readout reflects transmitted (ie, carrier) frequency (most do). Consult your transceiver's manual if you're not sure.
>> >>
>> >> From the ARRL:
>> >> In addition, the FCC continues to require that all digital transmissions be centered on the channel-center frequencies, which the Report and Order defines as being 1.5 kHz above the suppressed carrier frequency of a transceiver operated in the Upper Sideband (USB) mode. This is typically the frequency shown on the frequency display.
>> >>
>> >> (Note that this does not say 1580, 1320, 700, ...it says 1.5 kHz) my comment, not ARRL's)
>> >>
>> >> http://www.arrl.org/60m-channel-allocation
>> >> "Operating at strict channel-center frequencies may come as a disappointment to many, but cooperating with the NTIA is key to expanded privileges in the future.
>> >> The channel center frequencies are":..snipped...60 meters
>> >>
>> >> "Only one signal at a time is permitted on any channel." (From ARRL Band Poster)
>> >> http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/Band%20Chart/Band%20Chart%20-%2011X17%20Color.pdf
>> >>
>> >> More on Center of Channel ( 1500 Hz) Requirement:
>> >>
>> >> "With your PSK31 software display configured to indicate audio frequencies, click your mouse cursor at the 1500 Hz mark (see below). With your radio in the USB mode, this marker indicates the center of the channel and it is the frequency on which you should be transmitting."
>> >>
>> >> There is no special exemption for FT8, the same center channel rule applies.
>> >>
>> >> In Summary from the ARRL:
>> >>
>> >> 1. Only one station may transmit at a time.
>> >> 2. They must be at he CENTER of the allocated channel (1500 Hz)
>> >> 3. NTIA has defined "on channel" as precisely 1.5 kHz below the assigned channel frequency.
>> >>
>> >> These are highly restrictive and have NOT been enforced. I posted my initial "Be Careful" message, because I was warned by someone familiar with the upcoming ARRL take-over of the FCC certified Monitoring Program, that once the new program had officially started : ENFORCEMENT WOULD BE FORTHCOMING and the enforcement will include referrals to the FCC for action.
>> >>
>> >> Unfortunately, the comment below reflects the attitude of many USA amateurs:
>> >>
>> >>  "If the FCC is that concerned about legitimate FT8 use within that 2.8 KHz BW, they need to clarify their own rules and rationale and make this clarification known.  Because right now, its as clear as mud.  "Field Day" for lawyers, so to speak."
>> >>
>> >> As a result,  the 60m requirements for digital, (FT8 included), have been summarily ignored if not outright violated. I, myself did so, because I did not understand how one could reasonably operate a full SSB bandwidth and that was ok, but could not use the entire 2.8 kHz bandwidth for multiple narrow band FT8 transmissions. It makes NO sense. But....the rule is unforgiving and I have been told they are going to enforce it.
>> >>
>> >> I have advocated one thing and one thing only: Be Careful. I don't have horse this race. It would be a shame, however, if we lost this allocation or someone would get a QSL card from the FCC because they refused to exercise some caution in the matter.
>> >>
>> >> 73, N0AN
>> >> Hasan
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 5:41 AM Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Also, it clearly states that no more than one station transmit at any given time thus also limiting to a conversational rather than a transactional contact type. (If you hear a conversation, don't transmit, if you hear a CQ, answer it unless you hear someone else answering)
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Seannon, ag0ny
>> >>>
>> >>> On Thu, Feb 20, 2020, 05:15 Nc8q-mesh@... <nc8q-mesh@...> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On 2/20/20 5:17 AM, Hasan Schiers N0AN wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Again, ARRL have *on multiple occasions* reported communications from
>> >>>> FCC Enforcement staff (and NTIA who are responsible for the "60 M
>> >>>> band") reminding US licensed amateurs that 97.303(h) requires using
>> >>>> *identical* audio frequency and carrier offsets so that the transmitted
>> >>>> signal is centered exactly on the middle of the assigned "Channel" -
>> >>>> not generating a random offset within a 2.7 KHz "band".
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> IMHO, this discussion of operating FT8 on 60 meters deserves its own thread.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>  From looking at the waterfall display (Wide Graph),
>> >>>> it seems to me that a FT8 Tx frequency of 1500 indicates signals from
>> >>>> 'dial frequency + 1500 Hz' to 'dial frequency + ~1548 Hz'.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The get TX signals centered on 1500 Hz,
>> >>>>  would it not require setting WSJTX to 1476 Hz ?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Chuck
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > “It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”
>> >
>> > Nikola Tesla
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
> --
> “It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”
>
> Nikola Tesla
>
>
>

--

“It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”

Nikola Tesla