locked Re: 60 meters: Operating guidelines for FT8


Seannon Baker (AG0NY)
 

the fact that we're secondary isn't as much of a big deal as we were given very specific rules to follow, 5 channels,  restricted power, specifically limited emissions, and very specific instructions on the use of frequency. how do they differ for 30M? well, it's NOT channelized, it's power restricted, and digital only... from a usage standpoint, a much different situation, but again, no leaving dirty diapers in the borrowed car... or you may find you can't borrow the car.

Seannon AG0NY


On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 9:50 PM Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...> wrote:
We are secondary on several bands, including 70cm, 1.2GHz and 30m.
Lots of amateur spectrum is secondary, with the primary users being US
Government and the military.

This certainly isn't unique to 60m.

73
Ria, N2RJ

On Fri, 21 Feb 2020 at 22:42, Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:
>
> Hassan, I'm going to pick out a bit of info here... you stated that being able to use full bandwidth for SSB, but only the bandwidth of a single transmission on digital, which for this band is CW, (on off, not modulated) PSK31, PACTORIII, and RTTY, RTTY seems to have been added begrudgingly, but the important things of note are 1. WE ARE SECONDARY ON THIS BAND! , not primary, so we exist here only as long as we do things the way we won't get in trouble, we may get a slice of the band at some point, but we need to prove our ability to abide by the rules. 2, the band poster is pretty clear on the rules for this band,  it really is, 3. when you consider the types of use the primary users of the band have for it, (governmental) it makes sense that it would be one station transmitting at a time, period, if you transmit over someone else's transmission, you are causing interference. if you can't hear the station, it's unintentional, if you do it and you KNOW there's someone transmitting, it's INTENTIONAL INTERFERENCE, and against FCC regs anyway...like if you're hearing a pileup and everyone's running 50 watts, and you decide to heck with them, I'm going to make this contact if it kills me and slam them with a beam and full legal limit, you're breaking the intent of the rules. going back to the use, we are secondary, if you have 35 stations clogging up the channel, it would take much more time to tell each person QRT than the one or two that it would be.
>
> think of it this way, we are "BORROWING" the car... what rules should you follow when you borrow the car? the ones the person that let you use the car has, along with all local laws... don't get it dirty, don't wreck it, don't leave dirty diapers or used condoms in it don't do something that makes the person that has the car say I don't think I want to let you borrow the car again.
>
> the rules on this band are restrictive for a reason, just as their own internal rules are on the band. I'm not even entirely convinced that it's legal for us to use FT8 on this band AT ALL because they don't specify it, they mention CW, PSK31, PACTORIII (not AMTOR or any other similar modes) and begrudgingly RTTY
>
> Seannon, AG0NY
>
> Only one signal at a time is permitted on any channel." (From ARRL Band Poster)
> http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/Band%20Chart/Band%20Chart%20-%2011X17%20Color.pdf
>
> More on Center of Channel ( 1500 Hz) Requirement:
>
> "With your PSK31 software display configured to indicate audio frequencies, click your mouse cursor at the 1500 Hz mark (see below). With your radio in the USB mode, this marker indicates the center of the channel and it is the frequency on which you should be transmitting."
>
> There is no special exemption for FT8, the same center channel rule applies.
>
> In Summary from the ARRL:
>
> 1. Only one station may transmit at a time.
> 2. They must be at he CENTER of the allocated channel (1500 Hz)
> 3. NTIA has defined "on channel" as precisely 1.5 kHz below the assigned channel frequency.
>
> These are highly restrictive and have NOT been enforced. I posted my initial "Be Careful" message, because I was warned by someone familiar with the upcoming ARRL take-over of the FCC certified Monitoring Program, that once the new program had officially started : ENFORCEMENT WOULD BE FORTHCOMING and the enforcement will include referrals to the FCC for action.
>
> Unfortunately, the comment below reflects the attitude of many USA amateurs:
>
>  "If the FCC is that concerned about legitimate FT8 use within that 2.8 KHz BW, they need to clarify their own rules and rationale and make this clarification known.  Because right now, its as clear as mud.  "Field Day" for lawyers, so to speak."
>
> But the rules ARE clear here, there's a power level, compared to known quantity, they specifically give both CW center frequencies and USB frequencies as "Channels" they also give specific emissions types that are allowed, also, don't transmit when you can hear a station transmitting (only one station transmitting at any time) now, as for the rationale? that's not for us really, we have the rules to follow.
>
> As a result,  the 60m requirements for digital, (FT8 included), have been summarily ignored if not outright violated. I, myself did so, because I did not understand how one could reasonably operate a full SSB bandwidth and that was ok, but could not use the entire 2.8 kHz bandwidth for multiple narrow band FT8 transmissions. It makes NO sense. But....the rule is unforgiving and I have been told they are going to enforce it.
> It makes much more sense when you consider the government as primary, with us as secondary, it would take much more time to contact 20-30 stations to tell them to QRT than one or two governments would not try to stuff a ton of traffic in a single channel like this, they go for reliable communications over efficiency, unlike hams
>
>
> Only one signal at a time is permitted on any channel." (From ARRL Band Poster)
> http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/Band%20Chart/Band%20Chart%20-%2011X17%20Color.pdf
>
> More on Center of Channel ( 1500 Hz) Requirement:
>
> "With your PSK31 software display configured to indicate audio frequencies, click your mouse cursor at the 1500 Hz mark (see below). With your radio in the USB mode, this marker indicates the center of the channel and it is the frequency on which you should be transmitting."
>
> There is no special exemption for FT8, the same center channel rule applies.
>
> In Summary from the ARRL:
>
> 1. Only one station may transmit at a time.
> 2. They must be at he CENTER of the allocated channel (1500 Hz)
> 3. NTIA has defined "on channel" as precisely 1.5 kHz below the assigned channel frequency.
>
> These are highly restrictive and have NOT been enforced. I posted my initial "Be Careful" message, because I was warned by someone familiar with the upcoming ARRL take-over of the FCC certified Monitoring Program, that once the new program had officially started : ENFORCEMENT WOULD BE FORTHCOMING and the enforcement will include referrals to the FCC for action.
>
> Unfortunately, the comment below reflects the attitude of many USA amateurs:
>
>  "If the FCC is that concerned about legitimate FT8 use within that 2.8 KHz BW, they need to clarify their own rules and rationale and make this clarification known.  Because right now, its as clear as mud.  "Field Day" for lawyers, so to speak."
> The rules are pretty well spelled out, look at the chart above, there's channel info and conversions, , center channels, power requirements in relation to a specific antenna, and emissions modes (PSK31, PACTORIII not AMTOR or similar modes and RTTY, so it's questionable as to the legality of FT8 here anyway.
> As a result,  the 60m requirements for digital, (FT8 included), have been summarily ignored if not outright violated. I, myself did so, because I did not understand how one could reasonably operate a full SSB bandwidth and that was ok, but could not use the entire 2.8 kHz bandwidth for multiple narrow band FT8 transmissions. It makes NO sense. But....the rule is unforgiving and I have been told they are going to enforce it.
> It makes a lot more sense when you consider the PRIMARY on the band, and not us as amateurs that are secondary. governments would use this as close to a clear channel for simplicity's sake especially true in emergency communications, or wartime, so, if you hear someone transmitting, wait, don't transmit on top of them, it could be life or death. We as hams like to make the case for efficiency, the government for reliable communications
>
> I have advocated one thing and one thing only: Be Careful. I don't have horse this race. It would be a shame, however, if we lost this allocation or someone would get a QSL card from the FCC because they refused to exercise some caution in the matter.
>
>
>
> I have advocated one thing and one thing only: Be Careful. I don't have horse this race. It would be a shame, however, if we lost this allocation or someone would get a QSL card from the FCC because they refused to exercise some caution in the matter.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 7:55 AM Hasan Schiers N0AN <hbasri.schiers6@...> wrote:
>>
>> From the ARRL:
>> These are channel-center frequencies, not the ones you tune your radio to. The NTIA told the FCC that hams "must assure that their signal is transmitted on the channel-center frequency." This means the amateur signal must be centered within the 2.8-kHz-wide channel. The FCC has provided scant guidance beyond suggesting--in a footnote that follows the NTIA's advice--that amateurs tune 1.5 kHz below the center-channel frequencies to be "on channel." Amateurs need to be sure that the tuning display readout reflects transmitted (ie, carrier) frequency (most do). Consult your transceiver's manual if you're not sure.
>>
>> From the ARRL:
>> In addition, the FCC continues to require that all digital transmissions be centered on the channel-center frequencies, which the Report and Order defines as being 1.5 kHz above the suppressed carrier frequency of a transceiver operated in the Upper Sideband (USB) mode. This is typically the frequency shown on the frequency display.
>>
>> (Note that this does not say 1580, 1320, 700, ...it says 1.5 kHz) my comment, not ARRL's)
>>
>> http://www.arrl.org/60m-channel-allocation
>> "Operating at strict channel-center frequencies may come as a disappointment to many, but cooperating with the NTIA is key to expanded privileges in the future.
>> The channel center frequencies are":..snipped...60 meters
>>
>> "Only one signal at a time is permitted on any channel." (From ARRL Band Poster)
>> http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/Band%20Chart/Band%20Chart%20-%2011X17%20Color.pdf
>>
>> More on Center of Channel ( 1500 Hz) Requirement:
>>
>> "With your PSK31 software display configured to indicate audio frequencies, click your mouse cursor at the 1500 Hz mark (see below). With your radio in the USB mode, this marker indicates the center of the channel and it is the frequency on which you should be transmitting."
>>
>> There is no special exemption for FT8, the same center channel rule applies.
>>
>> In Summary from the ARRL:
>>
>> 1. Only one station may transmit at a time.
>> 2. They must be at he CENTER of the allocated channel (1500 Hz)
>> 3. NTIA has defined "on channel" as precisely 1.5 kHz below the assigned channel frequency.
>>
>> These are highly restrictive and have NOT been enforced. I posted my initial "Be Careful" message, because I was warned by someone familiar with the upcoming ARRL take-over of the FCC certified Monitoring Program, that once the new program had officially started : ENFORCEMENT WOULD BE FORTHCOMING and the enforcement will include referrals to the FCC for action.
>>
>> Unfortunately, the comment below reflects the attitude of many USA amateurs:
>>
>>  "If the FCC is that concerned about legitimate FT8 use within that 2.8 KHz BW, they need to clarify their own rules and rationale and make this clarification known.  Because right now, its as clear as mud.  "Field Day" for lawyers, so to speak."
>>
>> As a result,  the 60m requirements for digital, (FT8 included), have been summarily ignored if not outright violated. I, myself did so, because I did not understand how one could reasonably operate a full SSB bandwidth and that was ok, but could not use the entire 2.8 kHz bandwidth for multiple narrow band FT8 transmissions. It makes NO sense. But....the rule is unforgiving and I have been told they are going to enforce it.
>>
>> I have advocated one thing and one thing only: Be Careful. I don't have horse this race. It would be a shame, however, if we lost this allocation or someone would get a QSL card from the FCC because they refused to exercise some caution in the matter.
>>
>> 73, N0AN
>> Hasan
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 5:41 AM Seannon Baker (AG0NY) <KD4IYI@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> Also, it clearly states that no more than one station transmit at any given time thus also limiting to a conversational rather than a transactional contact type. (If you hear a conversation, don't transmit, if you hear a CQ, answer it unless you hear someone else answering)
>>>
>>>
>>> Seannon, ag0ny
>>>
>>> On Thu, Feb 20, 2020, 05:15 Nc8q-mesh@... <nc8q-mesh@...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 2/20/20 5:17 AM, Hasan Schiers N0AN wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Again, ARRL have *on multiple occasions* reported communications from
>>>> FCC Enforcement staff (and NTIA who are responsible for the "60 M
>>>> band") reminding US licensed amateurs that 97.303(h) requires using
>>>> *identical* audio frequency and carrier offsets so that the transmitted
>>>> signal is centered exactly on the middle of the assigned "Channel" -
>>>> not generating a random offset within a 2.7 KHz "band".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> IMHO, this discussion of operating FT8 on 60 meters deserves its own thread.
>>>>
>>>>  From looking at the waterfall display (Wide Graph),
>>>> it seems to me that a FT8 Tx frequency of 1500 indicates signals from
>>>> 'dial frequency + 1500 Hz' to 'dial frequency + ~1548 Hz'.
>>>>
>>>> The get TX signals centered on 1500 Hz,
>>>>  would it not require setting WSJTX to 1476 Hz ?
>>>>
>>>> Chuck
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> “It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”
>
> Nikola Tesla
>
>
>



--
“It is a simple feat of scientific electrical engineering — only expensive — blind, faint-hearted, doubting world.”

Nikola Tesla


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